im looking into this, as another means to raise compression without having to mill the head, or put in new pistons, but i have heared its nearly impossible to do right.

even the porters ive talked to werent too enthusiastic about doing it.

i have read endyn's articles on it, but frankly, i havent ever seena head come out of their shop thats had it done..

is this a dangerous mod? hp/dollar make it worthless???

anybody running one daily? and how is it holdin up? pics would be nice also

 

that is more like a full race mod in my opinion the person but be pretty skilled in the area to do it and i also like the open bowl the more unshrouded area the better in my opinion but i do agree that it does like all things have its specific application that it would work trememdously in...

 

Welding is is a complicated expensive procedure(replacing the seats,milling the weld,etc..)that in most cases isn't needed,you can get the cc's somewhere else.But if you want some welding done I'll be willing to do it for you.Did you just want the quench pads of a B16 welded in or a clover leaf chamber?

 

leave it stock you dont need compresion to make power just get some flow

 

im just lookin over my options, brad


i dont really wanna change out the GSR pistons in my engine, but want higher compression without having to worry about piston/valve contact.

would it be feasible to achieve a 12:1 comp with cloverleaf? and would it create any hotspots???

 

clover leaf is about the worst thing you can do to a honda head..

these valve angles are not 14 degrees like a bussa head..

wana kill power and flow break the torch out

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">clover leaf is about the worst thing you can do to a honda head..

these valve angles are not 14 degrees like a bussa head..

wana kill power and flow break the torch out</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmm. JG used to do clover leaf.

 

hmm keep the info coming...

 

welding a b16 for quench pads is good clover leaf is not. by welding pads you not only get more compression but you also achieve a better burn thus increasing effiecency. clover leaf is over rated because you will achieve "more" compression but you will also add valve shrouding. many companies do clover leaf because the compression factor plus it looks trick but for a power stand point all you are doing is limiting the air flow potential.dont be fooled not any machine shop can do this mod succesfully but they can make it look good. we have done this a ton of times and know the proper process as do some of the other head guys on here. if we can assist you in any way feel free to give us a call....

 

clover leaf?????

pics? cuz i don't know what the hell you're talking about!?

 

this is a semi- cloverleaf

 

I have one. This is my DPR stage 6 head: I'm running the 100% stock usdm gsr bottom end with this head and itr cams. 190 whp. I've never had a problem with this setup. Rev it to 8,500 daily. Stock oem bottom end with oem itr cams, how can you go wrong?

Stock for reference:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by na200whp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

this is a semi- cloverleaf</TD></TR></TABLE>


can u tell me who did this?

i woudl like more pics, of full, and semi cloverleaf setups, just for reference!

so people agree quench pads being welded up is gernally a good mod to gain compression, but welding IN the chamber is not, correct?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnzm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


can u tell me who did this?

i woudl like more pics, of full, and semi cloverleaf setups, just for reference!

so people agree quench pads being welded up is gernally a good mod to gain compression, but welding IN the chamber is not, correct?</TD></TR></TABLE> Yo can anybody show me where the quench pad is lol

 

Welding heads is not something to do in isolation. Sure, you will see an increase in compression and this alone will help power output. Brad is 100% correct that the valve angle on a honda head does not favor a cloverleaf design - too much shrouding of the valves. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here - I'm assuming this is what you were referring to Brad.)

The whole point of welding heads (as far as I'm concerned) is to further develop quench areas. If you can weld your head in such a way as to match flat areas of your piston with flat areas of your head AND you decrease your piston-head clearance to absurdly close specs AND your motor has a high R/S rario so that the piston dwells longer close to TDC, then you have a chance of seeing some serious tangible benefits in the form of detonation resistance due to turbulence in the chamber.

If you just weld the head and do nothing else, you're wasting time and money. I don't think even Larry or any of the other quench ***** will argue that point.

 

Something to think about

Flow from 0.150 to 0.250" valve lift can be improved by "laying back" the bulge at the side of the chambers (the sides between the intake and exhaust valves). Why would you want to counteract this for 0.2CR compression. Less flow = less dynamic compression right?

Plus if you don't weld properly you could loose press around the seats and your seats will fall out.

Mill the head 0.030 and buy some GE 440 cam gears and call it a day.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Flow from 0.150 to 0.250" valve lift can be improved by "laying back" the bulge at the side of the chambers (the sides between the intake and exhaust valves).</TD></TR></TABLE>

What about at 0.400 or 0.500" valve lift? We're talking about a honda motor with at least stock cams here, right? Last I checked, no OEM honda cam (let alone aftermarket) had less than 0.400" lift on the vtec lobe. The vtec lobe is where peak power will be made. So why are we concerned with low valve lifts again? If the same flow differences are present (or greater?) at valve lifts typical of a vtec cam, then I can see the point of your argument.

Care to elaborate?

 

This goes back to which flow is more important.

Flow at 0.150 to 0.250 is important. Your intake valve is generally open more than 0.150" at TDC and more than 0.120 for the exhaust valve. The time that both intake and exhaust valves are open is where the header scavenging comes to play. This will allow you to get more out of your RMF or SMSP header (shameless plug).

It is fairly straight forward to make big peak lift numbers by opening up the throats of the ports but this kills low and mid lift flows and makes for less power overall power.

Also do you know what duration most cams have at 0.400" (Hint: Not as much as you think).

 

Thanks Rocket, that was really helpful.

 

hey i was just thinking thatwoudlnt it be more beneficial to improve the breathing qualities of the head at the lift that the cam is at the longest? (.i.e not the peak lift) if the cam is at 400 lift for 2 degrees it has less than 400 lift on each side of it. so does that mean you would want to port for the 400 lift or the 375 lift.....

 

Eeek... if you're not doing head work... I vote keep the head virgin and go with a thinner hg and some gears.

Discussion is good tho...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Something to think about

Flow from 0.150 to 0.250" valve lift can be improved by "laying back" the bulge at the side of the chambers (the sides between the intake and exhaust valves). Why would you want to counteract this for 0.2CR compression. Less flow = less dynamic compression right?

Plus if you don't weld properly you could loose press around the seats and your seats will fall out.

Mill the head 0.030 and buy some GE 440 cam gears and call it a day.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so you dont have a problem w/ my head or the dpr head shown just the area that would of completed the complete cloverleaf design? also my seats were removed when the weilding was done and new seats installed.im very interested if you have more input.
more pics to look at.

 

You chambers actually look pretty good.

You got the Omni vavles?

 

yes

 

I think this spawned because of my question to John. It looks like we just didnt weld nearly enough material into my head. Im not doing the full clover, just the semi like shown above. At this point the head is done but it only yielded 41cc per cylinder Not what I was looking for. I guess I need some more seats and more welding rod. Anyone know where I can get a set of those bronze valve seats? Those things are hard to find. My reason for doing this is nitrous btw. Flat top pistons are a must for me.

Stevieteg, do you know how much CC per cylinder your yielded?