And how early does it hit?
My friend is buying his first Honda and we are trying to think up an engine combo...
He wants to have good torque,not necessarilly a VTEC screamer...
I was thinking of either 95mm X 81mm or do a 95mm X 84mm...
Its a 90 Integra so were thinking about getting it sleeved/bored to 84mm but with alot of stroke...
Will the 95mm stroker put out more than typical less stroke 2 liter engines?

 

in stead of stroking and going with bad rod ratios, sleeve and bore the motor . . . do a search on rod ratios its important when reving higher and if your going all motor you wanna rev higher

 

Every single pro motor making over 300 WHP NA uses a rather large (95+mm) stroke.

The internet community is brainwashed when it comes to stroke and r/s ratios. You can have a 95mm stroke with a 1.48+/- r/s ratio be completely reliable and make a ton of power and torque. Dont expect to use an off the shelf cam or intake manifold. Most of the off the shelf stuff was developed with the stock stroke in mind. Getting the head to breath well enough in relation to a cam tailored to the large stroke bottom end and an appropriately sized and configured IM and you can broaden the power and torque curve to make power from early on (3500) all the way to 8400+. I use 8400 as an example for a street motor. At 8400 the motor isnt working quite as hard as a motor that spins at 9500+ which will be a lot easier on the valvetrain.

If you look back to the Le Mans events of the 60's when the GT (Shelby 427 equipped) ran against the ferrari's with a smaller displacement, higher revving motor the large 427's were more reliable, ran stronger for longer periods of time simply because they werent working nearly as hard as the ferrari engines that were consistantly buzzing at 9000 rpm.

I hate to make a muscle car reference on this board but in a way, its a direct relation. The 383 chevy (stroked 350) uses a 3.750 stroke, the 95mm honda crank is a 3.740 stroke. Granted you have more deck to work with on the 350 you are still dealing with the same factors of low r/s ratios (1.52 w/ a 5.7 rod) and increased piston speeds. Only with a Honda, you have a much better cylinder head, better valvetrain geometry and much better camshaft dynamics to work with.

Keep in mind also. The industry is headed by pro drivers desperate to keep their set ups a secret. If they went right, they will tell you they went left. Or, in most cases. If they use a big stroke, they will tell you otherwise. It has a lot to do with time and money. People who spend it to get to a certain point sure as hell arent going to give it away for free.


Modified by Innovation at 7:34 AM 3/19/2005

 

I know about r/s ratio,but I also know bigger is mostly better...Heres our potential setup...
95mm x 84mm or maybe just a 92 x 84. Either way were going to use his LS block(sleeve it if he has the cash) Wiseco's 12:1 and prolly Eagles w/ raised wristpin...
Plans are to keep the head non-vtec since the engine will probably only see 7.5K rpm's max.
Stock valvetrain if they wont bind,maybe just some custom grind cams w/ more lift less duration(turbo cams)
I figured some kind of long large diameter headers and something similar for the intake manifold...Possibly a re-worked LS or GSR dual runner...

So I told this guy he could prolly eek out 160-180 WHp and about the same for WTQ...All without revving the crap outta your motor. 7K redline...

I see 1.8's maxxing about 135-140 WTQ...
2.0L hitting 150-160 WTQ..
And H22's touching 180 tq to the wheels...
So a large stroke 2.1L should be somewhere in between right?

Bump for any 95mm cranked folks. I dont need to know your whole setup or HP, I just want to know your how your TQ curve is...
When does it start?
When does it PEAK and how much?
And when does it fall off?

Thanks in advance. We plan to build one hell of an LS sleeper

 

Bigger isnt always better, bigger isnt always bad either.

 

Why spend all that money on your bottom end just to throw a shitty head on it? Im not sayin you should go vtec, but if I had that bottom end I would at least run some 404s with a better manifold and a p+p job if you can afford it.

 

A ported and polished LS head is still not as good as a B16 head. the port shapes and angles are still worse and the combustion chamber is still smaller. a B16 head with the right custom grind cams might not be a bad idea. i haven't done the math to see how much you would need to raise the wrist pin (and i'm sure you have), but your pin will have to be raised a lot. i'm guessing somewhere around .225-.245". it might not be a bad idea to look into a deck plate and run a semi-normal piston.

if you wanna run a PR4 head to save money, i def see your point. the PR4 head isn't the greatest, but its not a piece of junk like some people make it out to be. i just wouldn't look for flow numbers from a PR4 head (P&P or not) to be as good as what a PR3 head could be.

i like the idea of a 95mm crank honda that makes 170 WTQ tho. i'm not a big crank guy, and i like theory and specs when it comes to engine building, but a honda 4 banger that makes a lot of torque would be fun to have, just cause its kind of... well, un-honda (besides the H22). high revving motors are more my bag, but i can't say these 95mm crank hondas that are popping up don't interest me. hope it all works out for you.


Modified by Train at 8:28 PM 3/19/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PyroProblem &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know about r/s ratio,but I also know bigger is mostly better...Heres our potential setup...
95mm x 84mm or maybe just a 92 x 84. Either way were going to use his LS block(sleeve it if he has the cash) Wiseco's 12:1 and prolly Eagles w/ raised wristpin...
Plans are to keep the head non-vtec since the engine will probably only see 7.5K rpm's max.
Stock valvetrain if they wont bind,maybe just some custom grind cams w/ more lift less duration(turbo cams)
I figured some kind of long large diameter headers and something similar for the intake manifold...Possibly a re-worked LS or GSR dual runner...

So I told this guy he could prolly eek out 160-180 WHp and about the same for WTQ...All without revving the crap outta your motor. 7K redline...

I see 1.8's maxxing about 135-140 WTQ...
2.0L hitting 150-160 WTQ..
And H22's touching 180 tq to the wheels...
So a large stroke 2.1L should be somewhere in between right?

Bump for any 95mm cranked folks. I dont need to know your whole setup or HP, I just want to know your how your TQ curve is...
When does it start?
When does it PEAK and how much?
And when does it fall off?

Thanks in advance. We plan to build one hell of an LS sleeper</TD></TR></TABLE> I also find no point in building a stroked block that will cost you more than $2000 easily with a shitty head. There is no point in building it if you want to keep the head non-vtec and relativly stock. If torque is what you are looking for while still making hp, you should look into a k20/k24 or h22/h23.

 

K-swaps are kinda out of the question at this point. Too much converting =too much money...
The whole reason for the LS head would be that this would be a fairly low revving engine where VTEC wouldnt be ideal. He'd be in VTEC for about 2K rpm's until it would be time to shift...
I think with a properly ported LS head that flows to match the 2.0L bottom end would be good .
The head will be done up as well,Not really knowledgable about all of the non-vtec grinds out there,but hear that the 404's are pretty good. I just dont think it would be perfect for a 95 x 84 engine. I think a custom grind similar to it but maybe with different duration might match the engine's breathing characteristics...
I myself having gone from a 1.6 to a 1.8 and now a 2.0L can tell you the Torque of larger engines kicks a$$...And I recommend it to anyone,if you can afford it,go big on the block.Your head makes the power, but you still need a badass foundation to build off of...

Hopefully he bought the car already...its a 90 DA all stock for $800.

 

I dont know what kinda manifolds an engine like this would like either... Id assume a little bit larger primaries for the exhaust?
And longer runners on the manifold for torque?
Seems like all the manifolds out there are for High HP and high RPM's...I thought a re-worked LS manifold or even a re-flanged GSR manifold would be better...I guess I need to make friends w/ a flow bench owner.lol

I know there are some "stroker kits" out there with a .250" raised wristpin, but I think these are for mostly 89mm crank engines...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Every single pro motor making over 300 WHP NA uses a rather large (95+mm) stroke.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

how many can truly say they legitimately put down 300+ WHP all motor?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikesrex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

how many can truly say they legitimately put down 300+ WHP all motor? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Pretty much every car in the sub 10.35 range. You cant make that much power or go much faster than 10.60's on a stock stroke B, H, F or K motor.

 

I'm under the impression that the B series guys putting down 300+ legitimately are running 101mm cranks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Pretty much every car in the sub 10.35 range. You cant make that much power or go much faster than 10.60's on a stock stroke B, H, F or K motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Erick's Racing WAS NOT putting down that much horsepower (300) and he still runs sub 10.3's.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikesrex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm under the impression that the B series guys putting down 300+ legitimately are running 101mm cranks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What crank is that?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Every single pro motor making over 300 WHP NA uses a rather large (95+mm) stroke. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes. But only because they don't have a choice. Honda engines are quite limited when it comes to increasing displacement. You can only increase bore diameter so much. And when you reach that limit, you still don't have much displacement. So if you want more, you have no choice but to increase stroke, as undesirable as that may be. But then again, when all you do is run your car a quarter mile at a time, reliability is not absolutely paramount.

With this in mind, an 81mm bore/95mm stroke is a completely stupid setup. This only gives you 1955mm. And you can get 1972cc with MUCH greater longevity and reliability if you just sleeve to 84mm and keep the 89mm stroke. A bore of 84mm with a 95mm stroke gives you around 2.1 liters. And this would certainly give you more power and torque. But I would not consider such a motor to be a 200000 mile motor (which an 84/89 motor has the potential to be).

 

So, what your sating is that a motor such as the F23 (97mm stroke, 1.45 r's ratio) cant be reliable? I think honda tends to disagree with you on that one. After all, its the motor they chose for their most popular passenger cars in the late 90's up until 2002.

A 95mm stroked B series motor can in fact be reliable. If its a purpose built motor then go for it. If your looking for a motor to stick in a family car then dont bother. It sounds as if your looking for something more along the lines of a street/race motor. Either way you go, 95 or 89 stroke, those motors tend not to last much past 35K miles anyways. I cant think of any built motor that runs much past 40K, let alone 200K. The fact is, when you drive it hard you are going to wear on compnents and that will usually result in a short term motor.

Besides, if bore stays the same (84mm), you will always be faster with the larger stroke. Just make sure you look into a custom set of cams and a custom intake manifold that will work best with the larger stroke. Off the shelf parts arent really intended for a stroker motor. As long as you keep that in mind youll be on the right track.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Erick's Racing WAS NOT putting down that much horsepower (300) and he still runs sub 10.3's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Erick was running a 95+mm stroke


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What crank is that?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Custom. As stated before, all sub 10.35 cars are running large strokes.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Erick's Racing WAS NOT putting down that much horsepower (300) and he still runs sub 10.3's.

What crank is that?</TD></TR></TABLE>


Actually at Bakersfield last year Erick's Racing put down 313 on Churches dyno, FYI......

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VenGeanceDrag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Actually at Bakersfield last year Erick's Racing put down 313 on Churches dyno, FYI......
</TD></TR></TABLE>

what's up with someone telling me that he figured out a way to get a little bit of nitromethane into the mix with his racecar?

 

No ****? Well I saw the car getting dynoed, I didnt smell anything funny from his car, but ya never know....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, what your sating is that a motor such as the F23 (97mm stroke, 1.45 r's ratio) cant be reliable? I think honda tends to disagree with you on that one. After all, its the motor they chose for their most popular passenger cars in the late 90's up until 2002.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are a couple of differences here. First RPMs. The F23 has a VERY low rev limit as a result of its stroke and rod ratio. Your average mom driving an Accord is not going to take it to 8000RPM. Also, the deck height is taller on an F/H series block than a B-series block (a 90.7mm stroke on an H gives the same rod ratio as an 87.2mm stroke on a B). So with the same stroke on a B, rod ratio is going to be worse.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Erick was running a 95+mm stroke
Custom. As stated before, all sub 10.35 cars are running large strokes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well ****, I guess his web-site is lying then huh?
Look at the damn torque it was not on par for a 95mm crank!
Not to mention that both motors are quoted as being mere 2.0L!

Pulled from his site:

2.0 liter Race Bottom End Rebuild

This is a race rebuilt 2.0 liter engine suitable for all motor or forced induction. This is exactly the same bottom end as used in Erick's Racing record breaking 10.60 second all-motor racing car. Prices starts at $4000
General inspection
New gaskets/seals
Big bore ductile iron sleeves
Erick's Racing pistons and rings
Forged rods
New bearings
New oil pump
Blueprint and balance

http://www.ericksracing.com/images/headerdyno.jpg
Dyno chart from a 2.0 liter all-motor race engine built by Erick's Racing.


New 2.0 liter Race Engine

This is a 2.0 liter engine built using a new Type-R block and crankshaft from Honda. Prices starts at $6500
Big bore ductile iron sleeves
Erick's Racing pistons and rings
Forged rods
Blueprint and balance

http://www.ericksracing.com/images/dynorc.gif
Here is another dyno chart from a 2.0 liter all-motor race engine built by Erick, using Erick's Racing valve train and cylinder head work. If you want to run 10s in your all-motor Honda, this is the cheapest, easiest and most reliable way to do it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG-B20vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well ****, I guess his web-site is lying then huh?</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Pretty much every car in the sub 10.35 range. You cant make that much power or go much faster than 10.60's on a stock stroke B, H, F or K motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Erick would never give or sell anything he ran in his race car with success. No pro driver would really. After spending years developing a set uip that works well. Something that oputs you ahead of the rest. You tend not to give that information away. The specs on the custom JE's that go into the block are nothing like the pistons he ran in his race motor. They are nowhere near as light and arent even the same type of piston, different skirt profile. The rods used in the block he sells are rather heavy shelf rods, you think he used a heavy shelf rod in his race motor?

Pros lie, they lie to keep their secrets, secret. Thats just racing, its been that way for years.

At one time he was running a smaller stroke but when he started getting quicker and running in the low 10's/high 9's it was a large stroke motor. It was a 95mm stroke but if you look in the magazine article his car was featured in at the time it says 87 x 87.2. He was making over 300 WHP at the time running low 10's. Sorry, that doesnt happen with the stock 18C stroke. It was rather interesting reading that article, especially after talking to some of the people who tore his motors down for him after events to save him a little time while traveling back and forth.

Dont believe everything you read. The top guys arent going to tell you what they are actually running, rather, what they want you to think. I suppose you think Erick was running Toda D's? In actuality, Erick was running a huge custom cam made by Toda with near 14mm of lift. Yet you ask him and hell tell you he was running Toda D's. Why would he say that you ask?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keep in mind also. The industry is headed by pro drivers desperate to keep their set ups a secret. If they went right, they will tell you they went left. Or, in most cases. If they use a big stroke, they will tell you otherwise. It has a lot to do with time and money. People who spend it to get to a certain point sure as hell arent going to give it away for free</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StorminMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The F23 has a VERY low rev limit as a result of its stroke and rod ratio</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are incorrect there. The reason the F23 doent make power too high isnt because of the stroke or r/s ratio. its because of the head, cam and intake manifold. There are motors out there with 101+mm strokes making power well over 9K. There is no reason a 97mm stroked motor couldnt or cant make power past 8000 rpm.

The F23's rod length is 5.551 the stroke is 3.818 resulting in a 1.45 r/s ratio.

Using a 95mm stroke with a off the shelf 5.531 B series rod and custom pistons will result in a 1.47 r/s ratio.

Any way you go with a built performance oriented motor you are going to have a limited lifespan. Be it a small stroke or big stroke motor, you can only really expect 40K miles out of it before it either blows up or needs a complete tear down and refreshening. I see no problem getting a 95mm stroke to last that long if not longer under the abuse of a daily driven street warrior set up. The weakest link in a stroker motor would have to be the rods, mainly the rod bolts. As long as that is adressed and you are running a damper to control torsional vibrations you will be fine on the street or track. Just remember, off the shelf parts arent going to work will with a larger stroked bottom end. As long as you expect to run custom cams and possibly a custom sheet metal IM you will be ok.

 

I agree about the cover-up it makes alot of sense.

Innovation where were you when all the ****-tards were trying to scare me away from building my beast? I say 89mm stroke is the nom now.

Reading your ideas on Low R/S is a breath of fresh air and leads me to think that possibly the whole theory of piston speed was introduced to harness the street cars from becoming too fast. Ultimately defining a margin between street and race cars.

Where can I get this afforementioned 101mm crank?