Launching my h22a sucks ... i am a decent driver. car is lowered 1.4 inches with 205/40/17 tires on it. solutions i am thinking about trying to fix this problem...
Energy Suspension rubber bushings
Wider stickery tires ... ((can you guys help me out on this??? what is the largest tire i can get on my GEN4 ?? Rims are 17 X 7.5 or 17 X 7) tires are some midclass hankook sport tires )
New clutch and lightend flywheel (Suggestions here are valued as well ... thinking ACT, Exedy, or Clutchmasters ???)

Anyone else have problems launching ... i get a good amount of wheel hop that is a significant factor !!

Any one else have any thoughts on this matter please post em up....

Plus i would appreciate any info you guys have to offer on Tire Size and Clutch and Flywheel Upgrades...

Thanks a ton

 

HEy brother check out this forum..Might answer most of your questions.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1160575

WHat I have Fidanza Flywheeel with a clutchmasters stage four: check this forum
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=981327

LSD by quaife for traction
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=643295

Best suspension to get is Tein the SS (This I don't have yet but is in the Process)

The first forum is to help what RPM to take off on...and Plus more..... Hope this helps you...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by edulerp97 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
WHat I have Fidanza Flywheeel with a clutchmasters stage four: check this forum
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=981327
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That flywheel isn't helping your 60 ft times at all. If you care about drag times, LEAVE the stock flywheel alone.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by edulerp97 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Best suspension to get is Tein the SS (This I don't have yet but is in the Process)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
By far this is completely untrue. Tein SS uses a crap shock and isn't sprung for drag racing. Almost NO performance suspension for the Prelude will be sprung for drag... To tell the truth, one of the best things that you can do for drag strip only is to unload the rear suspension and put in rubber/urethane spring isolators. These effectively increase the spring rate to near infiinty and reduce the ability of the car to squat. You can just start throwing 1"x1"x2" (arbitrary #) bricks of rubber at 90 degree intervals into the spring coil gaps. But before you do this, make sure you measure the normal gap in the spring as you don't want too much of the car's weight sitting on these, you only want to use it to prevent squat and keep the weight on the front end of the car so adjust that size I listed above accordingly. Don't do this wall the way down though, as you want some compliance though the spring. As having an essentially solid rear will yeild some control problems down the track, so YMMV.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The first forum is to help what RPM to take off on...and Plus more..... Hope this helps you...</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is the only thing that's correct. To tell the truth, all 1/4 mile times for the most part are determined in the 60 ft time. Running 17" wheels isn't going to help that, you want 15" or smaller if you want to decrease your quarter mile times. Sidewall is a good thing (do NOT run less than a 50 series tire) in drag racing as you want an extremely soft sidewall to help load the tire and get a better launch. Though depending on your clutch and the tires you want to run your launch RPM will vary, how long have you been dragging and how good do you feel you are at feathering the clutch?

 

Besides the flywheel I guess you gave me something to think about....Thanks...

 

Pratice.

 

Stop launching at 7k.

I could launch with bald tires in anything condition, its all about technique, don't launch at 5k and just punch it, It all depends on your modification's, road surfaces and weather condition's. Try different techniques on different streets, I bet all you need to do is practice and feathering your clutch when you launch.

 

now whats wrong with a lightened flywheel for 1/4 mile times?

 

A lighter flywheel lets you REV much quicker, meaning that the revs go UP quicker, but also DROP quicker! When you rev the engine up, the flywheel doesnt 'hang' for a second in the RPM that you left it, it just falls back down. When most people put a lighter fly...they put a clutch with a stronger pressure plate.

The combonation of a quick revving engine...and a clutch that kicks in very hard, makes it more difficult to drive....you have to be much more precise when you match the revs.

If you have the RPM too high, the clutch doesnt 'give' at all, it just grabs the wheels and spins em; OR you will get some MAD wheel hop, that destroys your motor mounts!! But if you dont give it enough, or you match the RPM perfectly, then you will bog down for a second...... then you will fly (but this has lost me many of races since ive got my clutch/fly).

Plus the fact that a lighter flywheel opens up 15hp+ in FIRST gear, makes it eaiser to put lots of power to the wheels, making it even MORE difficult to hold traction all the way thru first gear.

BTW....thats how a lighter fly CAN hurt your 1/4 and 60ft times....but it all depends on how you drive it.

 

Wow didn't know that....Thanks for the info...

 

Actually that's not really the reason why the lightened flywheel is not benificial to 1/4 mile times. The difference (in energy required to spin) between the stock ~18 lb flywheel vs a ~8 lb flywheel isn't going to be all that much. It'll rev a little quicker, and MAYBE (this is taking the extreme benifit side) you'll gain .05 sec down the 1/4 mile but the biggest issue is the launch.

The flywheel is designed to retain energy and allow you to progressively transfer that energy to the wheels w/ use of the clutch. The lighter the flywheel the harder it is to get the car moving as there's less energy stored within the flywheel, thus you have to use engine power to make up for the lack of stored energy. I'm not sure about you, but my lead foot doesn't know the difference between 80 lbs/ft of torque and 90 lbs/ft of torque or whatever amount of torque that it takes to break traction of the front wheels from a standing start. The lighter the flywheel the much more prominent this factor becomes.

This being said, if any of you have watched any kind of road racing series, you see that when these cars come to pit they almost always have to do a burn out to get out. Ever wonder why? It's because their flywheels are so light that they can't get the car moving using the stored energy in the flywheel. Thus they need to use engine power to get the car moving thus the burn out out of the pit box.

Those who have drag raced realize that burning out isn't the quickest way to 60ft. It'll get you moving, but it's by far not the fastest way to do so. This will kill you in the 60ft times and doom your run from there, perfect shifts or not. The way to combat this is leaving the stock flywheel's weight (and ability to store energy) alone if not INCREASING it. I can guarantee you, all the professional drag racers have flywheels in excess of 15 lbs, most probably over 20. The higher the weight goes for the more grip they have (slicks) to be able to modulate the launch better.

This being said, if you can't get your 60 ft time into the 2.0-2.2 sec range on street tires you're not going to benifit getting a flywheel as you still don't know how to properly launch your car with the stocker. If you plan to get slicks, don't even bother thinking about changing it.


Modified by TimeRacer at 8:07 PM 3/10/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type SH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stop launching at 7k.

I could launch with bald tires in anything condition, its all about technique, don't launch at 5k and just punch it, It all depends on your modification's, road surfaces and weather condition's. Try different techniques on different streets, I bet all you need to do is practice and feathering your clutch when you launch.</TD></TR></TABLE>

whats wrong with launching at 7k? if you have enough HP, you can completely spin out in 1st and 2nd and get a 5 second 1/8 mile time

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TimeRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually that's not really the reason why the lightened flywheel is not benificial to 1/4 mile times. The difference (in energy required to spin) between the stock ~18 lb flywheel vs a ~8 lb flywheel isn't going to be all that much. It'll rev a little quicker, and MAYBE (this is taking the extreme benifit side) you'll gain .05 sec down the 1/4 mile but the biggest issue is the launch.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats good to know ! makes me want to go practive my 60ft

 

Soo i guess i was a lil off, i still learn new things everyday....but i think

But I still feel that after i put that flywheel in, i pull through the RPM range quicker and smoother than it ever did before.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoeHonda95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But I still feel that after i put that flywheel in, i pull through the RPM range quicker and smoother than it ever did before.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Money spent placebo affect. Think about it, loosing around 9 lbs on the flywheel can easily be done by switching to lighter rims. How many people with 15" volk TE-37's or similar say they accelerate that much faster? They're actually removing more weight than you do (probably around 10-15 lbs per wheel). You rev a little quicker, but nothing that will make you relatively faster in a drag strip. Also, keep in mind with power shifting the heavier flywheel again helps you.

 

I see what your saying....but from what ive heard, its not about the 9lbs off the weight of the car, its 9lbs off the rotating assemblies of the engine (does this apply to the wheels too??) , from my understanding, isnt this far better than simply removing weight from the vehicle??

And doesnt power shifting destroy your transmission?? i dont want to do that

BTW....i am not getting rims for a reason, i am keeping them stock, i know it might help a lil, and im sure exhaust would too....but....


Modified by JoeHonda95 at 5:46 PM 3/11/2005

 

Yes, it's off the rotating mass. So if you go with a lightweight crank, flywheel, tranny shafts/gears, axles, wheels, tires they all rotate and affect it. The further out the weight is, the harder it is to spin, thus the wheels/tires by far yeild the largest benifit when you go smaller and lighter. The flywheel helps a little, and you do rev slightly faster but if you took your 1/4 mile time before and your 1/4 mile time after I'd be very suprised if you were any faster, more than likely you'd end up slower but this would be determined by your 60ft time.

The flywheel really just doesn't help your quarter at all. It will help with track racing or autocross but not drag. Drag racing equipment and road race equipment are very different things with different purposes. Too many people get them confused and throw them all under "track" products. The flywheel is one of them.

Power shifting doesn't destroy your tranny. It's only driver error that can destroy it by shifting too fast and bending the forks/grinding the gears.

 

Did some research from another thread.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SilverCIVIC96 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, you do store less rotational energy with a lighter flywheel compared to a heavy one at the same rpm , but you can easily compensate by increasing the launch rpm.

Once you gain traction, it will take much less energy to rotate the flywheel, and that energy is transfered into accelerating the car. </TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by martini &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it just means you have to adjust your driving style. No big deal. a lightweight flywheel does make for a faster car, if you can drive to take advantage of it. Some people can't adjust thier styles, so it ends up negatively effecting thier times.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by owen_the_soyboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nope.

once you get traction, then think about what you want to do.... you want to accelerate the car in the forward direction, which requires rotating the tires, wheels, clutch, crank pulley, flywheel, crank, tranny, axles, brake rotors and also pushing the rods/pistons up and down as well as powering the cams and thus the valvetrain as well.

So the flywheel is one easy place to reduce this huge mass of rotation... and a cost effective way as well since the light flywheels are getting cheaper every month!</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dropped between .15 & .2 in the 1/8 after my clutchmasters flywheel and thats from a type R flywheel. I would think you would drop even more if you changed from say an Si flywheel. My 60 ft. improved somewhat but most of the improvement came from 60-330ft. This is on street tires but on drag radials I had basically the same 60 ft so I'm guessing it wouldn't really help at all on slicks. it would prolly slow you down</TD></TR></TABLE>
So basically if you know how to launch your car and get good traction then a flywheel will benefit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, you do store less rotational energy with a lighter flywheel compared to a heavy one at the same rpm , but you can easily compensate by increasing the launch rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is incorrect. As when you lighten the flywheel there is even less energy that can be stored within the flywheel to launch the car asking the driver to use more and more engine power. Even the stock one doesn't have enough stored energy to launch the car by itself (try a 7000 RPM drop into first gear w/o using the gas). The lighter flywheel asks for even more engine power to be used. So you're asking more of your right foot to control the exact torque output and RPM that your engine is making. Along with asking your left foot to control exactly how much of that power is going to the ground along with being able to maintain that VTEC (~5200 RPM) full clutch release point.

Secondly, when you raise the RPM's you also introduce more heat onto the clutch surface during the launch. As you have to slip the clutch even more (with the ligher flywheel) to get the car moving along with the raised RPM's it just screams heat. This changes the clutch's ability to grip (different heat levels equate to different friction values) thus killing your ability to feather the clutch effectively. The amount of friction varies changes all the time as the clutch heats up during the entire time that you're slipping it. Most good drag racers want to slip the clutch the least amount of time possible and be able to get on the power w/o worries of the clutch which again points to a heavier flywheel as you don't experience the insane RPM drop.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
once you get traction, then think about what you want to do.... you want to accelerate the car in the forward direction, which requires rotating the tires, wheels, clutch, crank pulley, flywheel, crank, tranny, axles, brake rotors and also pushing the rods/pistons up and down as well as powering the cams and thus the valvetrain as well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Will it make you faster after you launch the car, yes. From a dead stop, no. This is why it's good for road racing as you're almost never launching the car. While at autocross it can help as well as you rarely shift gears and go up and down the RPM range. It'll be faster in gear, while in motion. I've never said anything contrary to that.

As for Smote's... he's either an incredible driver or he was just so poor before and now he's got a better clutch and better skills thus allowing him to launch the car better. Again, if your 60 ft times are not within 2-2.2 seconds on street tires, you have plenty of room for improvement and your flywheel isn't the remedy.

It's just simple fact that that the 1/4 mile is made in the launch. The lighter flywheel hampers your ability to launch easily and makes you slip the clutch that much longer. Which just allows you to have that much smaller margin of error and kill your run. Don't post up these "well ____ said" as most of them confuse launching with acceleration which is shown in all of those posts you pulled. They're two completely different aspects and should be treated as such.

If you can get &lt;2.2 sec 60 ft times with the lightened flywheel on street tires you're a darn good driver, if you can get less then &lt;2.0 sec you're an incredible one. If you're on a basically stock motor. But most of the people here are posting up &gt;2.2 sec 60ft times. IF you want to listen to them go for it.

edit: You can possibly get away with a lighter flywheel in a much lighter car. However, I've been applying this to the Prelude (~3000 lbs). A gutted ~1800 lb Civic w/ a H22 won't need as large of a flywheel as our car in stock trim. Though the rule still works, the lighter the flywheel the harder it is to launch and the more skill (NOT launch RPM) you need.

Modified by TimeRacer at 1:18 AM 3/12/2005


Modified by TimeRacer at 1:17 PM 3/12/2005

 

hmmm ... the pro's ... the con's

 

what do you guys think of 225/40/17 on my 4th gen ... the rim i think is 7.5 wide ?

what about 225/50/16 if i change to a smaller rim ??

a good tire with moderate to decent tread life ?? I have had kumho's / falken's / and currently running hankook's

who has what tires and what are your epinoins here. remember this post refers to getting traction

 

Getting traction... best would be 15" rims on probably something like a 225/50/15 size. The 40 series tire is definately hurting you. I'd probably recommend getting the Toyo T1-S, or if you want cheaper something like the BFG G-Force Sport. What makes a good hook up tire is a really soft compound, really floppy sidewalls, and some good sidewall height.

 

to save you the trouble.....timeracer is right about everything he has said so far....

though i would like to add that i dont know anyone that can powershift a honda trans right.....i guess we could get into a tutorial on that.....

but, instead of spending a lot more money on flywheels and clutches, why dont you go for a hondata s200 with the launch control and full throttle shift option.....

that way you can get exactly the right rpm set on the launch limiter....

you also wont have to worry about spinning between gears, the full throttle shift only lets out a tiny chirp if i take the rpm all the way up to about 7600 then shift, if i shift sooner, it spins more, it has to do with the full throttle shift rpm setting.....

i believe the money spent on the hondata setup will help your 1/4 time a lot more than any flywheel or clutch.....

just for info i have a jdm h22 and as far as rotational mass loss i have a 8lb flywheel and some jdm '96 itr wheels with (soon to be changed for wider) 195-55-15 bridgestone potenza RE02s....and i can hook up pretty awesome using the launch limiter and slipping the clutch at about 3500 rpm....havent run a quarter yet but i will be looking for the 13.7 range.....

 

"Getting traction... best would be 15" rims on probably something like a 225/50/15 size. "

Perfect. Exactly the right size....grips good even looks sick!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flashmang &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what do you guys think of 225/40/17 on my 4th gen ... the rim i think is 7.5 wide ?

what about 225/50/16 if i change to a smaller rim ??

a good tire with moderate to decent tread life ?? I have had kumho's / falken's / and currently running hankook's

who has what tires and what are your epinoins here. remember this post refers to getting traction </TD></TR></TABLE>


why are you so concerned with traction?

practice, but some sticky tires, and stop whining

there are countless, 400hp+ hondas out there who manage to get traction and cut great 60' times

before you upgrade the equipment, work on the driver

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to save you the trouble.....timeracer is right about everything he has said so far....

just for info i have a jdm h22 and as far as rotational mass loss i have a 8lb flywheel and some jdm '96 itr wheels</TD></TR></TABLE>

But I dont get it. everything timeracer has said is about the flywheel having a negative affect on drag launches and you agree with him yet you have a light weight fly wheel. does this mean that the hondata program can over come all the negative affects mentioned by racer and make it beneficial instead of harmful???