ill be gearing up with the intent of renting a space to do chassis work in the next year or so. have loads of machinery with no room to work at home.

those who own shops,, what were the hidden expenses, necessary equipment and things you didnt foresee or where not otherwise prepared for. what tool did you find you cant live without, things like that in general?

 

I'm interested too

 

Mike, here's some basic things that nailed me on my first shop.

1. Forced Electrical Upgrading & Installation. It was hard enough finding a small shop with 3PH. When I did find it, I didn't dig deep enough. We ended up upgrading to a 200 AMP 480V circuit ontop of the 100 AMP 240V circuit. 8 Grand later. We were set. With commerical building everything has to be permitted and inspected or your insurance won't cover you in the event of a fire. Typically small shops have insufficient power unless you find one which WAS a machine shop.

2. Insurance. Product Liabiliy insurance around $600. Fire insurnace $300-400. Theft Insurnace ~$1300 (this depends on how much equipment you have).. This is all per year. Employment insurance per employee is .. a LOT more.

3. Alarm. Don't overlook this. We got broken into our first year and a lot of **** stolen. It wasn't that we didn't get stuff replaced, it's that we were down for almost a month because of it. A good alarm system costs around 2 grand.

I'll think of more I'm sure..

 

i was thinking id simply live there for the alarm. or get a big dog

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm interested too </TD></TR></TABLE>

Jason still has like 25k sq ft left

 

have a business plan. take a course or something for small business owners. it would probably be well worth the investment. this is what i plan on doing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm interested too </TD></TR></TABLE>
hmm, want to move to austin?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike_belben@yahoo.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> i was thinking id simply live there for the alarm. or get a big dog</TD></TR></TABLE>

In our part of the woods, you CANT live in an industrial zoned building. I had a neighbor that shacked up in the back of his and got booted! Big dog is definitely good ... assuming it doesn't grab parts and run off with them like mine.

Another thing that can save you big $ ... Call OSHA and have them come out and give you a safety consultation. By law they can't report any of their findings, and this will ensure that you've met all the safety requirements you need to have employees and customers in your building. Stupid **** can cost you a lot of money in the event of a surprise surprise inspection.

 

i like the osha idea, but i have a feeling the mills in my area wouldnt fare well, theyre all ancient ancient buildings and as more industry leaves for the south and overseas, the prices just get lower and lower. i was quoted $800 a month for 3000 sq feet the other day, and thats kind of pricey. another unit in springfield was $200 a month with electric and heat, partitioned slice of a huge building. the space would be around 20x40 but no car access, just a work space.

im sure for years i will be the only employee, and that very very few people aside from my friends will ever see the inside. it would be a brick building in a far corner of a huge industrial park with nothing more than a steel door and a big fat lock. no signs or windows. ive been self employed for 2 years with no business card and no advertisement. there still is not enough of me to go around, and my phone annoys everyone at all hours of the night purely through word of mouth. i sort of likethat better because im dealing with friend of a friend guys, and no one is gonna be an ***. when i part out and list cars in the paper, i have ever form of ******* calling me at all hours of the night with a pushy attitude. im not so broke that i need to bend over for the money. i get employment offers every week if so.

about the classes, i was a business major with more experience than the "professors" trying to teach it. when you broke down tuition to class time it worked out to $0.25 a minute and i sure wasnt getting that kinda value. dropped out with a 3.8 and things have taken off with the extra time it afforded. someday i would like to go to a real business school, but that day isnt in the forseeable future.

welding school/cert will come first.


Modified by mike_belben@yahoo.com at 11:26 PM 3/11/2005

 

Not a fab shop owner... but judging from the progression of the forum it seems more beneficial to you to buy a spot insted of renting. the thing is when you rent in order to do any major rewiring or installation you need the owners consent or it could land you in some serious legal trouble. obtaining that permission could take awhile depending on who youre renting from and they might be a bitch about it. just my 1 cent...

 

thats an excellent point, but it isnt feasible for me (with no outside income) to get a 30 year mortgage over a business that might not make it 5 years. renting will have its downsides, but provides a safety feature. not to mention, i dont intend to reside in this area any longer than i have to. (taking care of grandparents)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by titanperf &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

With commerical building everything has to be permitted and inspected </TD></TR></TABLE>


hello thousands of dollars. that was the big kicker. we wired up everything ourselves, and built all of our walls, stairs, storage, etc etc. everything was really really good, however i forget exactly why but some **** was out of "code" or whatever and they made us have a "electrician" come out and "fix" some things and they passed us. after further inspection half of the stuff he wired up was backwards and we had to put back to the way it should be. also with our office that we buildt(that has storage over top of it) we mad to more or less start over because i think the suport beams we used were 1 inch too thin or something stupid....and we had to completely redo our stairs too.

if i didnt have to pay rent i'd have money. rent is stupid expensive here where i am. i really really want to find a new location but i think the cost of moving would be outragous (dyno etc etc) paying employee's is ruff too. and taxes taxes taxes.

 

i will post up what i have in my shop that works fine for me!and stuff that i still need and you will probably need too. for whatever you do you might or might not need everything, but if you plan on having a full motorsports fab shop then this stuff is for you.
gotta love miller!
1- miller syncrowave 250dx/tig
2- miller syncrowave 350lx/tig
3- millermatic 251/mig
4- millermatic 350p/mig
5- miller spectrum 625 208/230V/ plasma cutter (dont have this yet but i will soon) right now i have a hypertherm
6- jd squared model 4 bender w/electric hydraulic conversion
7- 20" disk sander
8- vertical sander
9- tons of clamps, all sorts, jigging clamps
10- press
11- dimple dies
12- hand tools
13- if your gonna do alot of seam welding you will need a rotissorie. this is one of my favorite toys.
14- chassis jig if your gonna build them
15- try to stock lots of abrasives, all sorts
16- hole saw kit/ rota broach kit
17- tap and dye set
18- bolt bins,hardware, even ones you dont need but you think you will some day
19- acetone, denatured alcohol, weld clean, jasco prep and prime, wd of course, cosmoline, etc. all this stuff you will need at some point.
20- crud thug for stripping seam sealer
21- tube notcher
22- files, all sorts
23- one big fixed welding bench and some small for little jobs
24- cabinets are cleaner! shelves are cool but out of site is out of mind.
25- assorted tapes, duct tape etc.
26- plumb bob, roll of string
27- assorted levels, smart tool
28- assorted squares
29- circle templates, love these for making one off brackets and stuff
30- build your air lines out of copper it will last longer
31- drop lights
32- 50 gallon compressor, or larger
33- multi speed band saw
34- drill press, floor standing and table top
35- bech grinders
36- shop vac
37- welding curtans
38- chop saw, i prefer cold saw but its kinda expensive
39- little flexy measuring tape for header use etc.
40- vises
41- hose reels, much cleaner
42- material racks
43- sheer and break
44- plain of bend bracket, simple tool that comes in handy
45- jack and stands
46- tons of sharpie markers
47- autocad, solid works are good to have/learn but obviously not a necessity
48- your average comp. with business programs, invoicing etc.
49- lathe, mill which i believe you already have
50- set up equipment, corner weights, camber gauges etc. you might not be doing set up but if you build chassis or a complete car you will need em!
51- cutting torch set up
52- map gas/ propane torches
53- cant forget the push brooms,dust pans and hand brooms to clean up after all the fun.

thats about all i have, along with stuff i think you might need to do the job. there are obvious things i didnt mention so i didnt have to long a list. you will find you will need some specialty tools to meet your needs at some point im sure along with back purge set ups for stainless etc. i probably missed a couple of stuff but im sure someone will chime in and pick up where i left off. good luck with your venture. louie, L-CON

 

^ and all that can be lost without a $1500 alarm. I found out the hard way about 1 year into it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">^ and all that can be lost without a $1500 alarm. I found out the hard way about 1 year into it. </TD></TR></TABLE>oh yea, you definately need one of those!

 

i wish i had even half of that.....then again im only in this thing 3 years..

 

L-con, i really appreciate your time. the frightening thing is, i have all but the stack of welders in my house and garage!

we have an old but still great lincoln mig and an ancient sinewave linde 300 amp, but our circuit is too small. i probably wont start getting serious until ive paid the credit card that has funded me thus far.. and then gotten one top notch welder. probably a dynasty or syncro brand new, 300A or more.

i built the benders, but have only made 1" dies and that got backburnered for other tasks. who knows when i will run into a wall with that. as is, i hafta make a mandrel to do anything over 7" radius in our lathe before i can continue.
we have a press thats around 14 feet tall, a 24" hydraulic shear that does 1/4" plate, a 6' jump shear, 6 foot brake, beader, roller,uhh, arbor presses, milling machine, lathe, sunnen hone blah blah.. could whip up a planishing hammer and english wheel pretty quick. got several welding tables that are forklift only, a 1" thick 4x8 aluminum setup plate with 3/8-16 holes every square inch (funny what you find in the trash sometimes.) we have every hand tool imagineable.
a friend has a pullmax i can use. and im in the door at several large shops, both engine and tool and die. all this **** is in a 3 car tops garage and my basement. there are paths and isles.. and due to an unnamed slob, there is crap beyond belief. looks like a scrap yard and frusterates me to no end. car work is done outside in the snow and rain, and its wearing thin on me. something has got to change.

basically, im 25 years old, have been teaching myself everything that might be of any use very seriously for the past 2 years (when i got out of the marines i promised myself no more jobs.) i have access to 2 million dollars of equipment i did not pay for, and figure if i cant make this happen, i am a ******* retard. its a fine line between sleeping on your opportunity and jumping into something you arent prepared for. piece of cake in hindsight and to those who are on the outside looking in. still 16 hour days to the guy with rent to pay, machinery or not. im trying not to set myself up for failure.

L-con. why do you have so many welders? lots of employees or just collecting them over the years?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike_belben@yahoo.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i like the osha idea, but i have a feeling the mills in my area wouldnt fare well, theyre all ancient ancient buildings and as more industry leaves for the south and overseas, the prices just get lower and lower. i was quoted $800 a month for 3000 sq feet the other day, and thats kind of pricey. another unit in springfield was $200 a month with electric and heat, partitioned slice of a huge building. the space would be around 20x40 but no car access, just a work space.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mike, that cheap space is probably going to cost you more in the long run. Power man. Power kills your $$$. And you won't have good power in a building like that. $800 for 3000 sq is cheap over here...

I would agree it's better to buy. I leased for 1 year, then bought my current building. If you can't pay cash you have to get a commerical loan, which are usually 5 or 10 year with a big balloon at the end of the term.

 

the 3000 sq foot space has had welding shops so i think some units have good power or have been upgraded over the years.. the heat is included. even if its 45*, im working out in the rain and snow now on -5* nights sometimes. ask me how fun that makes things.

real estate in the north east is very very expensive because of the large corporations and high paying industry we are known for (that is going south/overseas.) the land to put a building on around here is 200k and then taxachusetts hits you up for whatever you have left over. i dont wanna work 80 hours a week to pay a bank and go home with mcdonalds pay.. i'd stay in my basement before that. we'll see how things work out, just getting ideas and keeping my eyes open for opportunity. thanks to all who commented, lots for me to think about.

 

i would say besides getting an alarm to make sure to bolt everything up so they can't physically get in. we have been broken into 3 times in the last 5 years! the first time they pried through a steel door with a deadbolt. that door now has 3 dead bolts and steel reinforcement along with double sided key'd deadbolts (can't open without key from either side) the 2nd time they kicked in the front glass door. that was replaced with lexan. i also have a door between the showroom area and back shop area that has 2 bars across it at night. also the back shop area doesn't have any windows and i leave the lights off at night via the breakers so if anyone did get in they wouldn't be able to turn on the lights to see. the third time they actually broke into the buisness next door and went into the attic and kicked a hole through the sheet rock! luckily all 3 times they took less than $200 worth of stuff each time. don't ask me, but they walked by a brand new welder and 4 toolboxes full of tools, 2 nitrous kits, and 3 turbos they damn near had to trip over all to clear out my ricer parts section full of ractive foot pedals, windshield squirter lights, and stickers! lol dumb ricers.

insurance is about $1000 a year here. rent for 1400 sqft is $800 a month. this is in town in a pretty decent location with about a 10 year old building. utilities in minnesota kill- my heat bill is $170 a month, electricity is $60 a month, internet and 1 phone line is $80 a month (buisness address is more $$ for utilities alot of times) garbage is $40 for a small dumpster. get recycle bins if they are free. we have a scrap steel bin and cardboard bin.

i would say the #1 thing is keep your loans SMALL! i started from scratch and built everything up without a single loan. i would say if your going to get a loan try to stay under $20,000 if possible. Soooo much less risk without a big loan payment every month.

the auto repair guy next to me started with $20,000 in loans last october, with no customers basicly. i talked to him the other day and he told me after just a few months of being open he knows he would never work a day for someone else again in his life. if your a 1/2 way decent buisness man you'll come to the same conclusion in no time.

 

i am amazed someone would go to that much trouble. my sister actually lives in bradenton and it seems like a nice place. she lives like 100 feet from the beach near some boardwalk/restaurant/tourist area and never locks the door.

i agree on the loans.. i have a 780 credit score. i could walk into any bank and be ready to rock first thing monday, but i dont like debt. im tired of being owned. i have a navy federal credit card that covers the day to day needs. last year a $2500 average balance cost me $61.00 in interest so im sure not complaining. like i said we have most of everything. i am about $7,000 away from having everything that most chassis builders do. unfortunately there are only so many hours and so much of me to go around.

ive been designing products here for a while that i havent marketed for lack of real solid testing just yet, but that is getting closer and closer each day. im finally starting to run into more or less steady jobs that pay well. but its always the same story. make X amount today, some bill or expense in that amount pops up tomorrow. ive got years of dues to pay, but im hammering through that quickly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike_belben@yahoo.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
L-con. why do you have so many welders? lots of employees or just collecting them over the years? </TD></TR></TABLE>
i have only had this shop for about a year and a half and this is stuff i have got in this time (and i own it all with no credit to pay off)! i guess i have alot of welders because i like to upgrade from one to another when i can and dont want to sell anything. i have learned that you can never have enouph equipment. in the past year i have put most of my profits back into tools and machinery. Regarding the last question, i work alone, however I am considering hiring a welder soon.


Modified by L-CON1 at 2:04 AM 3/13/2005

 

i acutally live in central minnesota but used to live in bradenton way way back. for tools i have got by with very little for the first 3-4 years. mainly a lincoln weldpak 100 and a chop saw, grinder, torch outfit. just recently i've realized the true value of good tools and have been purchasing quite a few lately. good tools = get the job done faster and better. the faster you work the more money you make. now i have:

hobart handler 135 wirefeeder
marquette 300 amp ac/dc tig outfit
2 millaukee chop saws
oxy/acc torch outfit
medium sized harbor freight mill/drill combo (this thing was my best investment although i'll be upgrading it soon)
harbor freight 4x6 bandsaw
dewalt sawzall and 4.5" grinder
skill 4" grinder
campbell hautsfield die grinder
skill 1/2" drill and dewalt 1/2" drill

those are the tools that get used the most. not much compared to alot of guys but they get pretty much any job done. next will be a pedestal mounted buffer and a sheetmetal brake, roller, and shear. then most likely a tubing bender and plasma cutter.

 

hold that plasma cutter off until you absolutely have no other means of cutting the item and borrowing your friends has lost its welcome. we have a $3000 miller spectrum 3080 that severs 1-1/8" i believe. i dunno man, just not as impressive as we hoped and gets used very very seldomly for its cost. its just a messy way to cut huge stuff, and a big fire hazard. you still need to machine the surfaceof anything you cut and make patterns for anything of accuracy. im talking about freehand plasma and this is just my opinion. perhaps you are talking about a guided pedestal mount.

the tig, bridgeport and lathe on the other hand.. every day items.

**on second thought, if its for body work i can understand a small one. i use mine the most often to just hack cars into hunks to fit in my truck bed for the scrap yard and except for loosing contact around (and burning) seam sealer, its great for that. take off panels in a minute or two where you work all afternoon with a sawzall.

 

i'm looking at a medium sized unit to maby cut 1/2" at the most. we do alot of custom suspension stuff like hydraulics, air suspension, etc that it would come in handy for. also it would be nice for some body work projects.


thats another thing, diversify what you do. don't just focus on 1 area. we do everything from hydraulic installations to custom turbo kits to lambo doors to body kits to general repair work (engine swaps, trany swaps, etc) to stereo installations and multimedia. we work on sport compacts, lowriders, hotrods, mini trucks, etc and sell accessories, wheels and tires, performance and suspension gear. keeping the customer base diverse is what guaruntees guys walking in the door at all times. also, getting a booth at any car shows and events helps get advertising around. my employees as well as myself carry a stack of buisness cards with us at all times and put them (in the window seam or under the wiper arm) of pretty much any custom vehicle we see. even if it only has a set of rims or some stickers on it. i've landed quite a few big jobs from doing this from people who didn't even know we existed. as far as advertising goes, radio is by far the best and the cheapest. for the first 2 years we were open i spent $200-500 a month on radio advertising and on our grand opening of our current location i got the radio station to do a live broadcast for a few hours. this got a ton of people out to check out the shop.