Does anyone know of any good books for suspension theory mostly. I found "Race car vehicle dynamics" which was recommended to me and "Competition Car Suspension" as well as "How to make your car handle" all seemed very insightful.. I was wondering if any of you have read any of these and your thoughts of them. Thanks!

-Chris

 

I'd recommend them in the order listed.

 

I really mean this:

You'd be better off if you spent the time understanding business and personal finance and working at bettering your economic conditions - while simultaneously paying someone who really knows what they are doing to specify or source a working package.

Then enjoy the driving, and the affluence, and the eventual retirement.

Of course, if you just can't help yourself, and you think you love the mechanical side of things, and you have a compelling curiousity, (God Help You), then read those books, and anything else you can find, and talk to people who are more sophisticated and experienced than you to gleen as many pointers and hints as you can till you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it - because only then will you truly be happy.

Scott, who has a friend who was so obsessed by a nutty hobby many years ago that he alienated The Perfect Girl...now all these many years later after a failed marriage to The Imperfect Girl and a nasty divorce and uncomfortable child custody issues the implication is clear: "Dis chit can Mess You UP!"

 

Well i'm wanting to learn more.... not give up my LIFE and ALL my money to cars but definately a REAL heavy hobby. But I think that most of all I want the understanding of how everything works... so when I get some time and money I can put my knowledge to use. I do see what you are saying about the outsourcing. As my step father would say, "There are Builders and there are Drivers, not both. Which one are you?"
I think of the books listed I will go with the more simple one and as my understanding and curiousity rises I will go for more detailed more headache making, number crunching book. Thanks for the insight... any more comments?

 

Having been down exactly the road you described - taking many years -

Puhn's "How to make you car handle" is the best starting point.

Then in approximate descending order:

Carroll Smith
Colin Campbell
Alan Staniforth

Then - when you've acquired the vocabulary and facility - Millican & Millican.

Then - find somebody with a back issue collection of Racecar Engineering and copy everything by Eric Zapletal and Mark Ortiz. Eric is tops.

Simon McBeath has written a few too - but I don't really think they're that great or provide additional or deep insight.

I really think that the highest returns aren't in the number crunching realm - but in the comprehension of the workings of the individual systems and the whole.

When you've got that down, spend the money and buy Bill Mitchell's WinGeo software and limit your numeric analysis to studying outputs.

And remember - unless you can change just about anything and everything under the rules of competition, this can all be pretty academic - beyond your prevention of gross errors of missunderstanding.

Good luck - and good luck finding people who actually know what they are talking about and are also willing to share it - I've found them to be very rare.

Scott, who is getting old and philosophical...and cranky too...

 

Hey thanks Scott, i really appreciate the wisdom on your part. I really think it's the best route... because as of lately I've been asking opinions and such and what-not and it still really doesn't help me decide what's best for me. With more knowledge I can obviously make a more educated decision towards what I want/need. And all of this knowledge will help in my project that is in the planning process, but which probably won't take place for many years down the road... wel, maybe if I win the lotto.. HAH! Anyways.. have you ever heard of or read this book?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...07846

 

I've seen it and flipped thru it. I didn't buy it. I already bought one generic "hot rodding Honda's" book and didn't need another. Go find a Border's that has it and spend an hour in one of their comfy chairs and read it.

Scott, who has made many "better informed" decisions...and still been wrong...not that I'm arguing FOR ignorance...

 

There are numerous SAE articles that you can wade through. The advantage of articles over a book (say RCVD) is that you don't have to tread through chapters of crap you don't care about. You don't need to know every mathematical manipulation of steady-state cornering to be able to design an excellent suspension. Of course, some people like to know everything. My suggestion in order:

1.) Tune to Win - Smith: good first book

2.) Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics - Gillespie: I'm actually taking his class at UofM, pretty knowledgable guy about 70's American racing (ie. not Hondas!)

3.) Race Car Vehicle Dynamics - Millikan: you'll see a lot of things repeated from Gillespie, but it is a but more quantitative.

Note: none of the above will tell you a damn thing about dampers.

4.) Various SAE articles. The above books will give you the knowledge base you need to figure out what the authors are talking about.

5.) Talking to people in industry. Nobody wants to publish the most important details. So bribe them.

I'm between steps 4 and 5.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...Note: none of the above will tell you a damn thing about dampers.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

And nobody else is going to either.

If you want to know about dampers, buy yourself the cheapest Rohrig at $8000, and build and build and log and log and drive and drive, and then also figure out a way to use the Rohrig load cell and DAQ to get more information about the behavior of dampers under conditions more closely resembling operating conditions by using a pneumatic ram to generate data.

Scott, who says do all this, build a respectable knowledge base, and it's still worth just about nothing to anyone but you...so you really gotta be sure it's that important to you...

 

the back page of racecar engineering magazine is always a favorite of mine to read and look forward to every month.

 

yeah that's a lot of work... i'm just looking for information and a good understanding of how and why things work so when I do my project I can use that knowledge to create a well handleing vehicle. And forgive my ignorance, but what's a Rohrig?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to know about dampers, buy yourself the cheapest Rohrig at $8000, and build and build and log and log and drive and drive, and then also figure out a way to use the Rohrig load cell and DAQ to get more information about the behavior of dampers under conditions more closely resembling operating conditions by using a pneumatic ram to generate data.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You had me right up until the "buy a Rohrig at $8000" part.

I have access to shock dynos thanks to sponsors of the FSAE team, but the problem I ran into was when I wanted to calculate what magnitude of forces the damper should apply based on a specific vehicle. Everyone has a general ruel (ie. 40% of critical for a F Atlantic etc.) but nobody will give up anything beyond that. I knew the damper curve I wanted, just not the forces.

Part of it is that the shock companies aren't willing to give you their spreadsheets they use to enter in parameters, which is completely understandable. The other part is that everyone else doesn't know what the hell they are doing. A handful do, and the rest are randomly guessing and checking with track data (which probably isn't a bad way to do it).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by darkspector &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah that's a lot of work... i'm just looking for information and a good understanding of how and why things work so when I do my project I can use that knowledge to create a well handleing vehicle. And forgive my ignorance, but what's a Rohrig?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry, we're off on a tangent about dampers. To create a good suspension, you don't need to know everything about dampers. Some people are interested in them and will suffer for it. For a good suspension, you need to know enough about dampers to know what characteristics your vehicle will need, and then relay that info to a company that will build it for you.

Tires and dampers are considered a mystery b/c the people who figured it out spent a lot of time and money and aren't willing to give that information away.

 

Well see that helps.. because my project is going to be a mid-engined BB2 Prelude. However good or bad of an idea it may be i still want to try it. But moving the front suspension to the rear I will have to calculate the spring rates, the placement of the UCA's where to put in the frame for the motor mounts and it all ties together. Especially how to design the suspension to handle the engine in the rear... obviously.. i'm at work and out of it so sorry if I sound redundant or stupid or whatever. heh You're guy's help is much appreciated.

 

It's your life, and you can spend it any way you choose.

Many could tell you: "Been there, done that, wouldn't do it again".

But life is funny, and you gotta do something - so why not something like that if you want.

Just don't sacrifice too much of the rest of life to do it.

Scott, who's got even nuttier ideas than that, but they're under control...besides every nutty idea is eventually displaced by another...must be an innate self preservation instinct.

 

HAHA I hear you there. I have and had so many nutty ideas it's pretty fun how things work like that. But hey.. when life throws you lemons... make them go fast eh? Or make lemonade... your choice. Does that even make sense.. no?? Good. So on a different subject i guess... what kinda careers do you guys have.. how have you obtained it.

 

Student - Mech. Engineering at Univ. of Michigan.

No career yet. I like dampers, tires, and race cars, so hopefully something that deals with those.

 

That's pretty cool.... you do any work on like a "race car" sorta project yet?

 

I'm a group leader for the Formula Car team at the school: Here

 

What motor did you use? seems to be a motorcycle motor... but i'm probably wrong. heh was it a good experience.. I don't see how it could not be

 

Inside Racing Technology has a very extensive section on shock construction, dynamics, and tuning.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Inside Racing Technology has a very extensive section on shock construction, dynamics, and tuning. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not.

Just because it's among the more modern books, and hence has a "more" extensive treatment of shocks DOES NOT mean it "is" extensive.

There is no such book or resource. And don't even mention Dixon's book - it is NOT practically useful.

Scott, who knows the uncertain futility of the search for knowledge in this realm will not keep the next guy from thinking it can be "learned" - you can check the box, but it still doesn't mean much...even when victory "proves" it...

 

Honda F4i 600cc. It's pretty damn fun, though time consuming.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Not.

Just because it's among the more modern books, and hence has a "more" extensive treatment of shocks DOES NOT mean it "is" extensive.

There is no such book or resource. And don't even mention Dixon's book - it is NOT practically useful.

Scott, who knows the uncertain futility of the search for knowledge in this realm will not keep the next guy from thinking it can be "learned" - you can check the box, but it still doesn't mean much...even when victory "proves" it...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is true. There is no book of secrets on dampers I know of. I have Inside Racing Technology and Dixon's book, and just about every other book on suspensions, and none of them are going to tell you a ton about dampers, but they are certainly better than nothing. There is also no susbstitute for a good knowledge of Newton's laws and the resonances they end up describing.

My advice is to concentrate on learning as much as you can on tires, load vs grip and slip angle vs grip. Olley's book will teach you a ton about slip angles and their effect on balance and how a car changes from understeer to oversteer in the same corner. Therein lies the secret, because until you understand tires, you know not why you want your suspension to do anything. Tires are "gummy" to learn about, whether in theory or in driving on the little suckers. In every book you look at, learn more as you go by concentrating on the tire section (even though you may feel it makes your eyes glaze over), learning about load transfer and how the tires react. In addition to all the books already mentioned here, carefully read "Chassis Engineering" by Herb Adams, and make yourself some spreadsheets to calculate grip vs load for various setups as shown in the first chapters of that book, and experiment, duplicating the book's results, and then change the tire curves and loads. And remember, total mass first (static and unsprung), static load distribution next, center of gravity height and track, roll resistance total and balance front to rear, effect of roll and thus camber on tire grip (this one is hard to figure out but crucial), springs, bars and motion ratios, and then for transitions, dampers. Oh yes, geometry too, but usually you can't do much about this, so it is a bit of an academic issue unless you are designing car suspensions.

 

Its strange that Paul Haney felt it was necessary to defend his book against bad reviews on Amazon...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> And remember, total mass first (static and unsprung), static load distribution next, center of gravity height and track, roll resistance total and balance front to rear, effect of roll and thus camber on tire grip (this one is hard to figure out but crucial), springs, bars and motion ratios, and then for transitions, dampers. Oh yes, geometry too</TD></TR></TABLE>
What do you mean by this part... is that the order you suggest in which to learn about suspension?