I have a customer who is interested in racing his 98 prelude....what are some modifications you recemmend to him to get his car going in terms of suspension?
In terms of swaybar, strut/srping combos, lsd? I need help with the prelude, not used to having someone ask about this car

 

* A good coilover setup. GC, OPM, True Choice, etc.
* A good 22mm rear sway bar. GC, Comptech, Suspension Techniques, etc
* An LSD.

 

where's Corey when you need him?

the first thing he should spend his money on is an High Performance Driving
School. Learning how to drive the car with it still being stock is very important in the progression of a track driver.


[Modified by urbanlegend21, 4:45 PM 1/21/2002]

 

Ok, Racing as in? Autox, Driving School, or all out wheel to wheel racing??

 

If he's just getting started, tell him not to do a damn thing to it. Drive it like it is, and he'll learn a lot more than he will if he has modifications to compensate for his weaknesses. He can modify it after he's been auto-xing for a few months, or does a few DE events. JMO

Matt

 

Not a damn thing. Spend money on the driver. Shocks, springs, sway bars and limited slips are totally useless unless you know what to do with them.

 

well, according to him, he has been to two driving schools over the last year. he seems really into it. He is now looking to give his car some upgrades. he was asking about filters and exhaust but i told him he needs more susp mods than anything. Thanks guys keep it coming, especially those with a prelude. BTW he seems like he is getting into all types of racing autocrss, road racing (with other cars), etc.

 

I note that you say a "customer" wants to get into racing so I am assuming that you want to sell him some go fast goodies. There is of course nothing wrong with that. However several of the replies are spot on about the driver investing money in his skills first before modding the car. I did a track event at Road Atlanta two weekends ago which is a very fast and tecnical 2.5 mile road racing venue. I had an instructor in my car who was intimately famaliar with Road Atlanta and had various racing experience, Speedvision World Challenge, Moroso enduro, etc. Doing hot laps with an instructor was well worth the price of the whole event. I learned a hell of a lot in spite of me having prior track experience at other venues. To drive the point home even better, in dicussing that track event on another forum, two guys related some racing driving school experiences. One involved a cocky new driver at the Skip Barber School. The instructor put Mr. Bad *** in a Stealth TT and the instructor was in a Dodge Dakota. The instructor smoked mr. bad ***. The other story was from a guy who did the Jim Russell Formula Ford school. He talked about after a few days how bad *** most of the drivers were feeling. The instructor, an accomplished driver lined up behind the grid of formula ford single seaters with the school's delivery van! The students laughed and thought it was pretty funny until, that's right, they got smoked by the instructor. Tell your customer to race a season, then sell him mods. Barry H.

 

If he's really hardcore about tracking his Prelude, you could probably sell him a rollbar/harness combo. Not a bad idea, and will let him safely improve his driving on the track.

 

Actually a K&N and a cat-back exhaust are usually 2 of the first things people do, and if someone *really* wants to spend some money on their car, those two things won't hurt his learning curve.

But replacing a stock suspension with a race suspension after only 2 HPDE schools will not help his learning at all. He likely isn't terribly comfortable on his very forgiving stock suspension yet, and you're suggesting throwing him on an unforgiving race suspension of some kind. Don't do this to him. The guy's done 2 schools. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that he doesn't have a great grasp of why his car behaves like it does quite yet. Now, go and put him on a coilover suspension and he's now got to concern himself (as a beginner) about getting the settings correct. Unless he's very LUCKY then I imagine he'll end up with all sorts of problems trying to get those coilovers set correctly for the track he's driving on. So instead of learning about driving, he's trying to figure out how to set the coilovers so it won't [for example] snap oversteer on him without having the first clue as to how to do that.

My suggestion. If the guy wants to spend money, have him get a K&N and a Borla (or flowmaster, or whatever). Don't put a race suspension on the car yet. If he learns to drive fast in a stock car, think how fast he'll be in a well prepared car. But let him get experience first.

r2x ~ who might have to sit in the passenger seat of someone like this and would prefer for her student to be worrying about his driving, not his suspension...

 

Suspension is great, but it won't make him a better driver... SEAT TIME!! What I do recomend as a first mod is brakes, get some high performance pads.. Not some axis metal masters or something, but some Carbotech panthers, or panther plus.. On a prelude, its a heavy car, with mediocre brakes.. Just front pads and keep fresh fluid in there.. Start with that, once they get some experience, its time for the suspension/tires...

 

I agree with the comments on suspension unless this guy has had some significant experience at Solo 2 and track events. A SCCA legal Solo 1 roll bar, some good brake pads (with brake ducts at road events-it can be rigged) would be useful. OK, an exhaust maybe but just from the standpoint of "sounding racy". What the hell. If this guy gets a shock combo that has significantly higher compression and rebound rates, he will probably experience problems with not being able to "feel" what his car is doing in transitions enough to keep up with it. It will be way more unforgiving. The biggest chunk of time to be gained (other than driver seat time) will come from a set of race rubber, DOT race tires like Hoosiers and Kuhmos (Victoracers last longer). The race tires can be pretty forgiving and don't go "off" or get "greasy" after a couple of hot laps like street tires. Plus you don't chew up your street tires (my rear wheel drive car eats a set of rears every 12 weeks). Whether he can take advantage of the tires, I don't know. Race wheels means a small trailer and a trailer hitch too. My .02. Barry H.

 

Well, in autoX, certain mods can put him in different classes where he wouldn't even be competent to run. I would tell him to stay away from the air filters and swaybar for now and just run in a stock class. if he's as good as he says he is, he wont have a problem kicking A$$ in a stock prelude. have him go to an AutoX event and try to run against the more experienced fellas and see how he does. Have him watch the guys in the upper classes that run with air and suspension mods and he'll come to grips and realize that they mean business and he'll need seatime to get as good as they are.

 

Thanks for all the replies guys. hopefully i can clear a couple things up. He called me and said he wanted some parts for his prelude. I said okay and recommended a few. then he said he races so i said before he goes and buys anything i will see what works well with his car because his money might be better spent on susp products....again he said he has been to two driving schools and i assume other events. I would like to sell him what he needs but i do not run my business in a way to make a quick buck. i want my customers to make informed purchases. I have a regular job so i can afford to do this. I just want to lead this guy in hte right direction and i totally understand what you guys mean by seat time. Nothing is problay more valuable. I do appreciate all your replies though. keep em coming.

 

Cory is right as to Solo 2 (autox). He would probably be better off and get the most competition in a stock class. Going with a different intake could put him in street prepared. He can change the front sway bar but if he changes the rear sway, he is no longer stock. Can't change wheel size either, etc, ad nauseum. If he wants to take the plunge and be competitive in street prepared, race rubber will be a must. Hell it is a must for stock unless they have a "street tire" class. He needs to talk to other knowledgable SCCA Solo 2 drivers about the rules. Track events are something else entirely. It is your customr's choice and his wallet.Good luck.
Barry H.

 

I put this guy is the "Knows just enough to be dangerous" catagory. Tell him to autocross for a year, and get up to ~10 track events. Then, and only then, will the CAR be the limiting factor.

Of course if he's got money burning a hole in his pocket right now, he can always send it to me.

A K&N filter is stock. A K&N intake is not.

 

I wouldn't put yourself in a position where you are going to loose his business, but sometimes the best business tactic is pure honesty

 

I do not plan on loosing money but i am not all into just sticking my hands into someones pockets. I thank you guys and will give the guy the word. FYI, this seems to be a much older gentleman so i hope he has a good head on his shoulders.

 

if he is sincere about it then don't shoot him down, I think what we are all getting at is that seat time is the best and most cost efficent modifcation to make
discuss his options with him, the choice is between him and you, but both of you are now 200% better off at making a desicion since you have a little outside background to go with
I hope we truly helped and tell him if he has any questions to come here and ask, you will not find a more knowledgable board on Honda tuning for racing

 

Isinteg, if he insists, grant his wish!! Making money is not evil. You can blame us for recommending that he chill out on some of the mods. Here is my best suggestion. He lives in NJ, right? Tracquest is putting on a two day "Driver's Education" event at Watkins Glen, NY on May 20-21. http://www.tracquest.com The Road Atlanta event I did two weeks ago was a Tracquest event and it was excellent. Most of the instructors were very race experienced and will happily scare the crap of you in their own cars as well. The event I guess runs what it did for Road Atlanta $300 for 1 day, $500 for a weekend. He can get 6 to 8hrs. of track time in one weekend!! Hell that is a whole season for most people. There are usually quite a few Porsches and other such machinery but then there are also miatas, S2000s, and such. After he boils his brake fluid, glazes his pads, and loses a lot of rubber he should be ready to go. At tracquest, even the intermediate group can pass with no signal from the driver ahead and you can pass in a turn with a signal! The instructor group, all is fair game, passing in turns and they don't give a lot of room either.
Barry H.

 

Go with safety items first. Be sure you can stop safely before you start adding more power. Upgrade the brakes - start with pads like Carbotech Panther Plus (I'm using em - love em) or the Porterfield RS4. If this'll be a race car, a cage, decent seat, and harnesses will make a big difference.
Go for power and suspension only after you can out-drive the car when it's basically stock. This will take much more than 2 DE events.

 

Can't wait until I get those PP's on!

About the R4-S...

I used them at the last event at VIR and hated them. Although they were broken in properly, they glazed and lacked greatly in performance. I think they'd be at great street/auto-x pad, though I won't be using them again...

Jason- who couldn't agree more with Adam concerning the safety items


[Modified by darth vadeR, 9:01 PM 1/21/2002]

 

I hear everyone on the subject of learning before mods... But learning is difficult and not much fun when you're fighting the car (like a stock GS-R understeering). In the way of suspension mods, I'd think the rear swaybar would be the place to start.

Also, you may want to get in contact with some places like Ground Control or OPM motorsports to see if they have good advice on setups.

-Mike

 

Try driving a pick up truck - an S10 Xtreme. Let's talk about sway and learning how to drive. And going through brakes.

Diane is right on....... until you've driven past the normal stock car, there's no reason to put money in mods --- but I agree with Corey - Brakes.... Brakes..... Brakes.

If he is going as good as he says, he would be asking about how to stop his car better. If he ain't there, he ain't there.

There are alll sorts of track time coming up. 2 events at VIR in Feb, Summit Point, WVA has track time on Fridays - if there's an opening. Have him check the club events at Limerock, CT. If he smokes brakes there, he's ready for some goodies. There will be events at Summit Point by NASA in June - if he can't travel far. But NJ doesn't have many tracks, so he's gonna have to travel somewhere to get to an HPDE.

As a former autoxr, time trialer, road racer, the only thing I can say is you learn more from a stock car than you can in a race car - at least at the beginning.

 

If you are finding that "learning is difficult and not much fun when you're fighting the car", then you sir are overdriving your vehicle. Yes, a FWD car will push like a pig. Learn to compensate for that. Make that your goal, not modding the car until you deem it drivable. Hell, if I take my tail-happy RWD Miata into a corner too fast the thing pushes.

That said, I'm not flaming here, nor am I saying you are a bad driver. I'm mearly suggesting that if you are fighting the car, something is wrong in the connection between the driver and the car. Try "wearing" you car as apposed to "getting into" it. Feel the car so you can really feel what it's doing. For example, take that split second and let the suspension settle after you turn in and before you get back on the gas. Little things like that make a huge difference in car responsiveness, but you have to be connected with your car before you can feel that stuff. If you are fighting the car, you'll never feel those little differences.

All of the above is from the "for what it's worth" department. For all I know, you are a national champion in some form of motorsports. But based on the comment above, I don't see that coming across in your post.