I contacted cosworth today and talked to one of the parts managers about getting the pistons they sell to jun for the h22a.

He said it was easier said than done. He said that JUN pays cosworth for the special forging tools needed to make this kind of piston, which he said was about 6-8 thousand dollars. He said that they pay for the tools and cosworth does the work and makes the pistons and sells them back to jun for material cost. Only orders straight from JUN can be made with these tools and they reserve the right to use them. Also, the tools that JUN paid for are only available at the cosworth company in the UK. I asked him if there was any way to make it work and he said that he could check and see if cosworth of UK or of CA has access to any of the same tools that JUN provides them with.

When I told him that a group buy was not out of the question (I mentioned this in a forum a day or two ago and there were definitely people interested), he sounded more enthusiastic and moved to say that he could maybe work something out (I'm guessing he is contemplating buying the same tools JUN uses for cosworth use, because I would think he would be hesitant to buy these tools just to make one set of pistons for ONE person in Raleigh, NC, me...). He took down my name and number and said he was writing cosworth UK an email after he got off the phone and would try and work something out and call me back within a few days.

I got my fingers crossed and if anyone else is interested in a group buy let me know just in case he is ready to do business when he calls again. I'm not promising anything and neither is he so take that into consideration, just let me know if you would be SERIOUSLY interested so that I could give him a round about number on the group buy should he ask.

Finding an alternative to sleeving the h22a block is almost impossible and JUN and honda (type-s) being the only companies with compatible pistons, I think it is a good idea and hopefully will encourage other companies to look into using similar forging methods by showing them the high demand for these pistons. H22's have been basically overlooked when it comes to r&d. The b series get all the attention. It's our turn! haha

If you have any additional questions PM me but try to keep this thread more of a show of hands about a group buy rather than ANOTHER B vs. H series battle or somethin else irrelevant.

Thanks for any input.


Modified by jd3jdm at 10:53 PM 2/23/2005


Modified by jd3jdm at 6:00 PM 2/24/2005

 

good work,but edit your post and throw in some paragraphs if you want more responses.

 

interested. price and compression are these the 12.8:1?

 

interestd in a turbo piston

 

interested, depending on price. any ballpark?

 

Depends on compression and price.

Also, does anyone have more info on the actual forging process used by JUN/Cosworth? I'm sure they're not the typical forged pistons, but maybe they are closer to the n/a forged pistons from Wiseco?

 

comp is 12.3:1

The guy asked me how much JUN charged for their pistons and I told him they ran about 1200 new from Jun and he was like damn...(like that's expensive)
I was like "yeah thats why we were trying to get to the source and make a group buy." He didn't mention a price just that he would try and work something out and call me back within the next couple days. I'm just waitin on the call. I just need a ballpark figure of how many people would be willing to go in on the group buy considering the price is reasonable. I'm not gonna pay 1000 bucks for a set of pistons either!

Basically what I'm thinkin is if we get enough people to buy so that he breaks even profit versus cost, {with buying the forging tools (6000-8000$) plus the cost of materials per piston = Total amt. of $ we pay for a certain number of pistons) I think if we have roughly about 20 people, he will break even and every piston like that he sells after that will be pure profit. That is going to be my scheme/business proposition. I believe the demand is out there for these pistons, its just that the big manufacturers don't know it.

PS: They don't make a turbo piston that is compatible with frm anywhere (to the best of my knowledge), you need to sleeve your block, unless you want to run boost on 12.3:1 comp. or get a 4 inch headgasket haha. Sorry man, if you want to boost, keep the stock piston's or sleeve it and get low comp.


Modified by jd3jdm at 6:20 PM 2/24/2005

 

Unless the tools were created by JUN and is proprietary equipment. If this is the case there is no way around JUN to get the pistons. Maybe talk to JUN and see if you can get a lower price on a big **** group buy. If you were a business, and you payed big bucks for all these tools and R&D to make this pistons, later to find out the company that you payed to make these special for you is now selling them to end users for cheaper. I wouldent hold your breath. But im sure you could find quite a few people interested in this piston. and if they made a low comp piston for a turbo application, holy **** look out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98TypeSH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unless the tools were created by JUN and is proprietary equipment. If this is the case there is no way around JUN to get the pistons. Maybe talk to JUN and see if you can get a lower price on a big **** group buy. If you were a business, and you payed big bucks for all these tools and R&D to make this pistons, later to find out the company that you payed to make these special for you is now selling them to end users for cheaper. I wouldent hold your breath. But im sure you could find quite a few people interested in this piston. and if they made a low comp piston for a turbo application, holy **** look out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i am all about the original, i really am. but this is different.

JUN didnt make the pistons to begin with. if they did then they would have made them all along. Now i could see JUN & Cosworth making them together, that is plausible.

As it sits JUN has a monopoly on a certian style of product, most likely due to trademark. if their trademark has run out then i see no problem going with the original manufacurer and losing the JUN nameplate. its not like rota who steals a design, Cosworth has been making them and stamping the JUN label on them for quite some time. These would be the originals.

 

yes but if im not mistaken, JUN bought the equipment for cosworth to use to make their pistons. Therefore the equipment is owned by JUN hence why cosworth sells them back to jun for material fee's only. If Cosworth were to buy the equipment necessary from JUN to make these pistons ( they would still have to be imported from the UK if they are still made there) then there would no problem. But if you were jun would you give up your equipment? i know i wouldent. And i woul think jun would have patented the design and coating or whatever. They charge 1200 bucks for a set of pistons because of all the R&D and special handling to get them to work with FRM.


We will see how this shakes out. ( no pun intended lol ) Keep us updated.

 

Why go through all of that. Why not just find out what material they are using, copy the skirt design of the piston JUN had made or maybe even improve on it and call it a day.

Mahle's pistons work but they arent made correctly yet. The valve reliefs were cut wrong and the rod valley is too narrow. That is being resolved shortly.

Probe Industries is in the process of developing their FRM friendly piston as well. I just talked to their Honda guy about it yesterday.

My point is, your trying to run a 5 mile 1/4 mile. Forget a Cosworth GB. Just do the homework and figure it out. The only thing that seperates Cosworth, JUN, Mahle or Probe Industries from the rest of the piston companies is the fact that they are willing to put the money and time into developing a piston to work with FRM.

Its not a tough task. The right material, skirt design and ring pack is what you need. You dont need to pay Cosworth to figure that out for you.

 

The tools are not made by JUN, The parts manager said that JUN paid Cosworth of UK to go out and buy the tools which cost them like 6 or 8 grand. Then JUN sells the piston and cosworth of UK gets a piece of the profit.

JUN as we all know no longer has any "dealers" in the US and it is hard and expensive to get their parts. Except through like inline four and what not for a shitload of money plus shipping from japan. Cosworth of california is loosely connected with Cosworth of UK and does not have any of these tools to use for JUN products. I also don't think JUN could get really mad about this because it would be cosworth's tools that they paid for and pistons made from their material and shop. JUN doesn't get most of its profit from people in the US and its not like I would be announcing it to the world to never buy from JUN again. It is JUST like skunk 2 trying to copy the jun cam for the h22. I still don't know if Cosworth is gonna do it for sure but I don't think its a bad business move at all.

 

What is all this talk of tools? Their are forgings, toolings for forgings, CNC mills to machine the pistons from the raw or stamped forgings.

Then, on the engineering side there is piston design, dome configuration, skirt profile, ring spacing, internal profile, pin boss lay out, ring pack.

Basicly what it all boils down to is the material used in the forgings, the tooling is basicly the stamp for the forgings which is IMO pointless. If you have the same material forgings you can do a simple strutted skirt and youd be fine. Im curious what the piston to wall clearance is with JUN pistons. Im assuming it will be in the .002-.0025 range. Im also assuming they are using a VMS-75 or softer type alloy.

Im telling you people, its not that hard. Just do some research. Figure out what material they use and go from there. From that point you can contact any piston manufacturer in the US and request a forged piston using a (insert material name here) base forging.

 

Well this is why I would go through what you think is a hastle. Cosworth knows what they're doing with this kind of piston and with the same tools, sure any company could do it but I will not trust mahle with a penny of my money. I don't like to cheap out on stuff especially when that "stuff" is a critical part of a motor's life. If you scratch up that frm too much you have to sleeve it anyway. I'm not willing to be Mahle or Probe's guinea pig and its not like I would buy them from cosworth if they were still gonna charge like 1200$. If its not right around the price of JE or Cosworth's regular pistons then I'm not lookin to put my money out. The point is that you are saying basically the same thing I am. We both want to get other companies into making frm "friendly" pistons. This is my way. I want to make them a business proposition so that they will realize the demand for these pistons and make a product line with these included, which makes it hard for the other big piston companies (JE, Wiseco, etc...) to overlook this design. If they start makin them too then I feel like I've really accomplished something and left H series lovers an alternative to resleeving for high compression.


Modified by jd3jdm at 7:48 PM 2/24/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is all this talk of tools? </TD></TR></TABLE>

We were talking about you

I jest, I jest

 

im down if the compression is bumped up higher...to 12.8:1!

 

Get these pistons and then weld your combustion chambers and get flat face valves that'll put you at 12.8:1 and you won't risk detonation either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h22a193 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im down if the compression is bumped up higher...to 12.8:1!</TD></TR></TABLE>

you'll be detonating on pump 93 gas that high...

 

no detination on ems!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is all this talk of tools? Their are forgings, toolings for forgings, CNC mills to machine the pistons from the raw or stamped forgings.

Then, on the engineering side there is piston design, dome configuration, skirt profile, ring spacing, internal profile, pin boss lay out, ring pack.

Basicly what it all boils down to is the material used in the forgings, the tooling is basicly the stamp for the forgings which is IMO pointless. If you have the same material forgings you can do a simple strutted skirt and youd be fine. Im curious what the piston to wall clearance is with JUN pistons. Im assuming it will be in the .002-.0025 range. Im also assuming they are using a VMS-75 or softer type alloy.

Im telling you people, its not that hard. Just do some research. Figure out what material they use and go from there. From that point you can contact any piston manufacturer in the US and request a forged piston using a (insert material name here) base forging.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ah... RS strikes agian.

intrested to know how you know about the problem with the Mahle's piston, and once they get their problems resolved whats wrong with just going with them?

and 12.3 is pointless for most of the people trying to avoid sleeving. FI is the reason most people want a frm friendly piston.

hopedully by the time i blow my stock f22 pistons all this will be hashed out so i can build my stock h22 block and keep frm. or here i come 85mm b series piston.

 

you're wrong. I don't even feel like arguing this point with you but I will say that mahle sucks, and that a SHITLOAD of people going the NA route would want this piston that is frm compatible because it gives you 12.3 comp. which is not "pointless" by any means, and it saves you over a grand in sleeving. I don't see why you're even posting on this thread with your irrelevant comments. I asked for people who want to get in on the group buy if it happens. Not for people who think they can bash the idea.

 

I am interested in the H22 pistons! Chalk one more person onto the list!