Having been shouted down when I tried to profess the virtues of the new DP rules among a group of ALMS fans three years ago, I wonder what folks think about the 2005 Rolex 24.

40+ lead changes, 20+ different engine/chassis combinations, a buttload of name drivers, sponsoring companies not owned by drivers...

I was around during the golden years of IMSA and it NEVER looked this good. I'll take 30 limited-technology prototypes over two Audi any day.

K

 

I think its great to have so many high-profile Nascar drivers involved (and hopefully taking in a fan or two each) alongside of some truly great road course veterans. I think its great to see the numbers in DP grow as they have. I think its good that there are still multiple classes (and it does - to my haven't-checked-the-counts eyes seem that there is more diversification than in SGS last year). I just wish that the multiple classes were GTS & GT (or GTO/GTU). But if it takes the Prototypes (or moreso, I guess its a similar/common template approach like Nascar's) to bring out money and players, so be it. I like it.

One thing I do fear is that someday a true oval race finds its way to Grand Am Rolex racing... maybe I am just being paranoid. I hope Jaimie McMurray's comments about how he'd like Daytona and Taladega run for the Nextel Schedule were heard - I think it would be a ton of fun to watch the Nextel cars run the Daytona infield!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I hope Jaimie McMurray's comments about how he'd like Daytona and Taladega run for the Nextel Schedule were heard - I think it would be a ton of fun to watch the Nextel cars run the Daytona infield!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, me too, but it will never happen.
The true base of NASCAR fans love those tracks because of the 3 wide, never lift, bumping and grinding stuff. Oh, and the wrecks.
They won't like all that braking and turning right.

As far as the DP stuff and NASCAR drivers (and IRL, and Champ Car), I think its great. It is reviving interest in the sport and bringing TV coverage, sponsors, and money, which is good for all of us, even at the amateur level.
But to me, the benchmark of roadracing being "back" in this country will be when Speed starts showing its own title sponsored series (SWC) LIVE!!!
When that happens, it will truly mark that professional Road Racing is alive and well in North America. But as long as Fox chooses to continue to show it on delay, while a repeat of NASCAR Today is playing on Speed...

 

I think that what is great for the sport is not only the fact that these Nascar drivers are partcipating, which draws viewers, but the fact that they seem to love it, which might lead us to believe that they will try it again.

What impressed me the most this year was the driver lineup as well, I love to see the regulars vs guys from IRL, CART, Nascar (3 series I don't watch), some ex-F1 drivers, FIA GT, Porsche Supercup and SWC.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But to me, the benchmark of roadracing being "back" in this country will be when Speed starts showing its own title sponsored series (SWC) LIVE!!!
When that happens, it will truly mark that professional Road Racing is alive and well in North America. But as long as Fox chooses to continue to show it on delay, while a repeat of NASCAR Today is playing on Speed...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree about SWC being live. I know they had 1 race that was broadcast LIVE last season, maybe 2. I hope more are LIVE this year.

s

 

There is an article about NASCAR in this month's Car and Driver, talking about how the current field of drivers are not the "Good Old Boys" that they used to be. Of the 10 who made it into the showdown for the Nextel Cup, only two are from the south. 1 is from Las Vegas, 2 from California, 2 from Indiana, etc.

At the same time, we are seeing a metamorphasis in the type of driver who suceeds in the series, and they are *real* racecar drivers, who can in fact do road courses as well. It's kind of annoying for people like me who are used to making fun of the inabilities of the NASCAR regulars to do any *real* racing. For the most part the Tony Stewarts, Jimmy Johnsons, Jamie McMurrays, and yes, *gulp*, Dale Earnhart Jr.'s of the World are making me eat my words.

Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, me too, but it will never happen.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't mean Nascar's officials/decision makers, I meant what Civic44 touches on, that he loves this type of racing, that he'd personally prefer this track configuration to the Daytona oval. I look at Nascar drivers as being in the bully pulpit to the fans of the sport and if they show excitement about the points system, a good number of the fans will. If they show excitement of the new aero package, a good number of the fans will. And IF they show excitement about running prototypes on road courses or rovals, some nubmer of the fans will.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

And IF they show excitement about running prototypes on road courses or rovals, some nubmer of the fans will.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree.

And on another note, Congratulations to GM, namely Pontiac, for getting behind the sport with both exposure and sponsorship dollars and getting the overall win.
Say what you want about GM/Pontiac, but they are putting far more effort into North American road racing than our beloved Honda.
I don't think that Honda is really supporting any NA road racing right now, unless you count IRL.

 

I have to admit, last night during a break for the Super Bowl, I had to ask..."so, how did the NASCAR guys do in the 24 of Daytona?" I needed to know somehow. So maybe it's good for road racing in NA. Can't hurt.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think that Honda is really supporting any NA road racing right now, unless you count IRL.</TD></TR></TABLE>

$75K Acura TL.

(ducks)

 

I loved watching the 24 this weekend (too hungover to move off the sofa anyway), but I only wish they showed more GT racing. Seems like the only time I saw a GT car is when a DP was passing one.

If NASCAR fans follow their favorite drivers to a road race, maybe some of the fans will stick around. The more road racing fans the better.

 

I don't think it’s a nascarfication because for one thing the format that has not changed its just good business and making it more affordable. There are not any carbureted 2 door fords, the GT cars are Race prepped Street cars, the DP are advanced Protypes made out of CF with complex suspension and engine management. High profile drivers have always been at Daytona since the inception, I don’t really see a nascarfication the difference is they are in competitive cars.

I hope it doesn’t become too much like Nascar in the Future because Nascar is the W.W.E. of Racing its entertainment not racing. When it becomes fixed and too much like Nascar I will loose interest and as you can see at Mid-Ohio last year the ALMS had a bigger crowed, the tickets for ALMS where $20 more, and if you look at this years Daytona the Stands where not full, compared to the days of IMSA and GTP. So until they fill the stands and get a bunch of backwoods red necks from down south, and get rid of the foreigners I think will be totally different then Nascar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trigun7469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When it becomes fixed and too much like Nascar.... So until they fill the stands and get a bunch of backwoods red necks from down south, and get rid of the foreigners I think will be totally different then Nascar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

get rid of the foreigners?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trigun7469 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and if you look at this years Daytona the Stands where not full, compared to the days of IMSA and GTP. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Um, the stands never fill for the 24 at Daytona

Brian

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having been shouted down when I tried to profess the virtues of the new DP rules among a group of ALMS fans three years ago, I wonder what folks think about the 2005 Rolex 24. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Depends..some people are race fans and will watch anything as long as it's exciting (which Grand Am wasn't three years ago) and some people are simply fans of a certain series (i.e. you're a CART fan so you HATE IRL, or you are a ALMS fan so you HATE GA).

I am a race fan and watch anything that is exciting. I watch Nascar and Craftsman Trucks Series because it's close racing and exciting. Same goes for Grand Am. In fact I have watched less ALMS racing for that simple fact it's boring. No racing going on in ALMS.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 40+ lead changes, 20+ different engine/chassis combinations, a buttload of name drivers, sponsoring companies not owned by drivers... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Only thing I don't differ on is the way DP's are marketed to some extent. No one outside of hard core race fans like people on this board know what the hell a Crawford, Fabcar, Riley, Doran and so on. It's hard to distinguish the cars as there can be a Riley Pontiac or a Riley Lexus or a Doran Lexus. I think at some point they are going to have to make the cars look different from each other.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I was around during the golden years of IMSA and it NEVER looked this good. I'll take 30 limited-technology prototypes over two Audi any day.

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

Grand Am is getting very exciting but nothing will match the hey day of IMSA in the 80's and very early 90's. I am not pooh poohing the DP's but they look like kit cars compared to the awesom IMSA and Group C cars of the 80's. Nothing will match the level of excitement watching the 956/962's battling the Lolas, Jaguars, and Japanese machinery (Nissan GTP's, Toyota Eagles.........).

In the end racing is about providing exciting racing and keeping costs under a control so that it doesn't kill the sport. Costs killed Group C when Nissan and Toyota started spending like crazy. Same happened in CART which nearly went under, and same is now happening in WRC, F1, and even IRL.

The successful fomula in racing is to provice racing that appeals to the fan who wants excitement (think NASCAR, IRL, Grand Am) while not alienating the hard core fan who cares about much more and watches stuff for things other than pure enterainment. This is why some people (like me) will still watch F1, ALMS or even CART even thought the entertainment level is less and the racing is watered down.

You have to be able to provide for both fans or all you are left with is all these splits (IRL vs. CART, GA vs. ALMS, and eventually F1 if the GPWC goes through).

Matt,

I started watching NASCAR when the new kids showed up (Busch, Newman, Gordon, Johnson, Mears.....) because I can relate better to some kid who raced karts or midgets, than I can relate to someone in the south who raced stock cars or dirt cars. But to imply (which I don't think you did) that real racing didn't occur before these young guns showed up would be false. There certainly is a lot of "dead wood" in NASCAR that one has to question (Jimmy Spencer ???), but the best NASCAR drivers of the 70's and 80's could have been great sports car drivers.

Remember when Earnhardt matched Ron Fellows and Johnny O'Connel's lap times in the Corvette C5R at Daytona in 2001 in pouring rain at night?

Regards,

Jon

 

When the DPs first debuted in 2003, I was totally against them. They seemed like pathetic race cars that no one had an interest in running. Then I started watching some of their races, and for only having 2-3 competitive cars at most races (plus a fast GTS car or two), the action was pretty good. I saw them in person at Mid-Ohio in '03, and was hooked. I knew that if they could get at least a dozen cars out there, it would be a hit.

Fast forward to '05, and Grand-Am is my new favorite racing series. Talented drivers, fast cars, great race tracks, what more could you ask for? I hope that ISC gets behind it from a promotional standpoint so that aspiring drivers have a destination path.

Those who hate on it are ignorant and bitter. They are either bitter because the France family are the only members of the U.S. motorsport community that know how to successfully run a racing series, or think that auto racing begins and ends with the looks of the cars.

Go to discuss Grand-Am, and the topic will be mostly about the on-track action and the drivers. Go to discuss ALMS, and it is all about what cars are there, and if they look pretty. Its great to see cars like the R8 in person, but after awhile, it gets REALLY boring if theres no on-track action.

The smartest thing Grand-Am ever did was realize that the hardcore sports car fan base can't come close to supporting a professional series, which is something that Don Panoz will probably NEVER figure out. Grand-Am succeeds from a competitor's standpoint, and if they can reach a new fan base, it will succeed from a spectator standpoint as well. The ALMS succeeds from neither standpoint.

 

My favorite quote from the weekend...

"There are too many corners out there. The normal oval only has four corners and I was having trouble negotiating a couple." -- Kurt Busch

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If NASCAR fans follow their favorite drivers to a road race, maybe some of the fans will stick around. The more road racing fans the better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That must be one of Grand-Am's biggest considerations. In the same way that they've turned supposed "support events" (Busch, Craftsman trucks, Bud Shootout, etc) into moneymakers of their own, they're now trying to work that magic on roadracing.

That said... this particular Rolex 24 was the most n00b-friendly event I've ever attended. From clean bathrooms to signage, the event was well-thought-out in every way possible.

The P.A. system was audible from anywhere in the facility - over the sound of the cars, no less - for 24 hours straight. It provided a lot of basic information about what was going on (DP vs. GT in particular) - as if the point of the commentary was education rather than entertainment.

The new "Fan Zone" offered extensive driver autograph sessions, past winning cars on display (plus parade lapping on Saturday morning), and live Speed Channel feeds on 30" monitors every 50 feet... not to mention full viewing of all the beautiful new garages for the duration of the event.

There were more NASCAR-themed flags, hats, shirts, jackets, and bumper stickers than I've ever seen at a pro sports car event. Yet all the traditional sports-car-fan elements were in place (exotics parked in the infield, big-access tickets for cheap, friendly camping areas, etc.)

Good for the sport? Definitely. Good for those of us who remember the IMSA days? Maybe not (it'll suck when they jack the ticket prices up - $80 worth of access at the Rolex 24 costs $200+ at a NASCAR race...)

PS- yes the stands were pretty empty but the infield was absolutely full (i.e. closed to the public) by 2pm on Saturday! First time I've heard of that happening...

Jon

 

Kirk,

I would vote YES! I had the same feelings as many on this thread, but after watching on the weekend I came to the same conclusion as you. NASCAR has saved Sportscar Racing in NA. I felt it was great racing, but they should get the stands full.

 

I remember IMSA in the old days (and even Formula 5000-Andretti, Redman, Unser, etc.). When Grand Am first came out I was not a fan. Have been a big fan of ALMS and I usually work a corner during the event (but have done that too for Grand Am). However, Audi has dominated the LMP class (was hoping the MG/Lola LMP675 would get reliable) and watch Corvette start doing the same in GT. While I find the paddock of an ALMS race more exciting to visit, the quality of the "show" on track has declined. Not enough rivalries. SWC on ALMS weekends is where the show is.

When a GT car won the Rolex 24 over the DPs I thought that was pretty funny. So what did they do? They changed the GT cars to a more stock spec and slowed them down. I think the DPs have gotten faster though. Haven't they? I still have a hard time gettng excited about the DP cars over say the Audi LMP but yep, the racing in Grand Am is definitely closer racing and therefore more fun to watch.

Why the success of Grand Am? Affordability.

I was talking to someone I know employed by Grand Am about the differences. He stated for a million bucks you can buy a DP and get a team started. For about 10 million dollars you can buy a ALMS prototype and get a team started. A lot more people can buy into the one million "dream of racing" than the ten million. Simple economics. Just look at the recent article in GRM about the difference between Grand Am Cup cars and SWC. One is what about $80,000 and the other is about $150,000. I believe that was the Will Turner cars which run in both.

SWC is still the best IMO. But you have to give thumbs up to Grand Am for making the sport more accesible and all those NASCAR stars running in the 24hr. Rolex has to be good marketing to drag the turn left people into the sport.

Barry H.

 

The NASCAR-ification that Kirk is referring to isn't just the drivers from NASCAR that are participating, it is that NASCAR owns Grand American and the DP is their Spin on the NASCAR model as it applys to SportsCar racing. Just in case some are confused.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The successful fomula in racing is to provice racing that appeals to the fan who wants excitement (think NASCAR, IRL, Grand Am) while not alienating the hard core fan who cares about much more and watches stuff for things other than pure enterainment. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's even simpler than that. The successful formula in sports car racing is to keep competition costs down so privateers can afford to run at the front.

Wayne Taylor's SunTrust team, while certainly one of the better-funded GA efforts, is spending barely a fraction of what an ALMS LMP1 team would have to spend for the honor of being lapped by Champion Audi - and WT just won the Rolex.

I'm of like mind with Sean OG. Grand-Am has found a way to make road racing profitable for the competitors, and in this day and age that's something to be applauded.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Victor Penner &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The NASCAR-ification that Kirk is referring to isn't just the drivers from NASCAR that are participating, it is that NASCAR owns Grand American and the DP is their Spin on the NASCAR model as it applys to SportsCar racing. Just in case some are confused.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This point reminds me of a return call I got from my friend in Grand Am organizaton. He was at the NASCAR Research Center at the time of the call and they were running some DPs I think on the dynos to see what some of the teams engines were putting out. Just like different engines get different rpm limits and other restrictions to keep the competition close. But if you are trying to equalize the competition then they are doing their homework.

Barry H.

 

I will be watching the Seibring event and passing on Daytona this year.

B. French style road racing?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get rid of the foreigners?</TD></TR></TABLE>

This one of the reasons why series in America do not do well because they do not have a majoirty of Americans.

[Qoute=brian]Um, the stands never fill for the 24 at Daytona

Brian[Qoute]

When Micheal, A.J. Foyt, Dan Gurney Raced at 24 hours Daytona there where a hole lot more people at those Races then now, Another Example, The Glen it was pact back in the day, when the sports cars came to race now there are barely any people at the races.

Almost every American Knows who Jeff Gordon and Dale Ernhardt are and don't have to watch the races or care about racing, now try and ask them to name one person from Grand Am, better Yet a American driver. Name Recognition means a lot to Americans especially if they are from the US, my point is that this series will not be at the level of popularity as Nascar because as you see not one American was in the winning Prototype.

 

I think it's double edged.

As Jon pointed out, the car DO need to become less ambiguous - even I have trouble pointing out on from the other. However, I think some of the aero restrictions (which are responsible for such a manistream design now) will be lifted in part to allow for more creative interpertation of the rules and a more aesthtically diverse field of cars.


On the one hand a lot of credit is due to FabCar for developing the DP cars and setting the stage for the GA series to develop. They set a damn good watermark and that's something difficult to do in the modern sports car racing era.


Anyone that views this NASCAR-ification as a negative is half-right, IMO. They're wrong in the sense that anyone who ignores the commercial powerhouse that is NASCAR in N. American racing is seriously in trouble. The founding of GA and the subsequent marketing appeal of bringing in NASCAR "stars" into road racing events makes huge in-roads into sustaining and expanding N. American road racing. Like others have commented, the NASCAR drivers will bring with them (we hope) a % of their fan base, and hopefully, they'll "see the light." However, those who object to the NASCAR-ification of sports car racing, are right because the potential for the NASCAR juggernaut to run over the other series currently going on (SWC, ALMS, CART, etc.) presents a rational liability - if manufactures begin to dissent from ALMS and SWC simply because the fan base, viewers and dollars are married to the NASCAR/GA empire, then the obvious result is a dying series. One could also argue, however, that the ALMS series, as far as LMP cars are concerned, is tying its own noose; AUDI is the overall favorite at every race, and the upping of a couple LMP2 cars into LMP1 (eg, the Dyson car) didn't have the hoped increase effect in competition - they need to do something to intice more manufactures to run the stateside series - I was over the moon happy to see the Zytek at Laguna Seca (they're a hugely competative team in the ELMS and brought the fight to AUDI).

My only gripe with GA and the 24 @ Daytona was the mentioned lackluster coverage of the other classes - if I were to go buy TV coverage, it was the 24 hours of Daytona Prototypes. Nothing else. They need to diversify the coverage.