Okay...here goes...

The ITR group is a tough crowd and we know we're going to take our lumps here. We're okay with that.

A previous thread was yanked and we never had a chance to respond. So wanted to do so here.

Some thoughts:

> For the guy that wanted to see track data and punch the guy in the nose that actually saw an improvement. Read below on the links. A HT member did see a 4 second improvement in lap times. That even surprised me.

> We are a small start up company with limited resources (mostly time). We understand getting numbers, but realize that a new company publishing their own results has about as much credibility as Turbonator, Tornado exhorting their claims. The same goes with Induction and exhaust kit companies publishing self proclaimed HP increases. Magazines like TPM have debunked these claims. So even if we published data on skid pad, lap times or even static stiffness, HT members would rip that apart saying that we are making up the numbers and actually compare us to turbonator. So it would be a genuine waste of our resources to pursue that given other priorities. Naturally, if we were crooked, it would be easy for us to fabricate numbers. But we are not doing business that way.

> Companys that sell handling products do not publish numbers for the same reason as mentioned above.

> Do a google on Korbach Performance and you will not see a negative review from anyone that has driven our Frame Locks

> Subjective evaluation is considered good data if performed by qualified people. Race drivers basically drive their cars on test tracks, tune them based on their feel. They don’t take numbers and plot charts on handling. Acceleration…yes, they do. You’d be surprised how much car manufacturers rely on subjective rides. Although, people can fall into the placebo effect. Take consideration that there are some pretty seasoned HT members including Black R, racers and moderators that have evaluated our products.

> I am out of time here, but we offer a 100% risk free purchase. Don’t like them, return them get all your money back. We risk quite a bit by doing this. No other chassis manufacturer does this. We have not had one return from an unhappy customer.

Okay. Ready for the attacks.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Below is some thing we wanted to post looking for more Beta Testers...

<U>MODERATORS: </U>
&gt;We hope that it is okay for us to offer free products (valued at $ 245) to select driving enthusiasts to Beta Test and help us develop Frame Locks for other Hondas. If you have any questions, email us on manager@korbachperformance.com
&gt; We noticed that an earlier posting from a member helping us find Beta Testers got pulled. Maybe because we are not advertising. Shame on us. We will get it done. You can pull this post if you want to wait until we do so.

<U>WHAT WE DO</U>
&gt; We innovated Frame Locks (patent pending), a brand new chassis product that significantly improves steering response (turn in) and ride by giving it a smooth yet very solid ride.
&gt; Our first product was on the 6th Gen Civic and now we are moving forward to other tuner cars.

<U>MADE FRONT COVER OF HONDA TUNING MAGAZINE</U>
&gt; We made the September 2004 front cover of Honda Tuning magazine “The Best Handling Upgrade You Don’t Know About”. 6 page article.
&gt; Check out the article on Honda Tuning magazine’s website: http://hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0409ht_honda/

<U>A FEW REVIEWS POSTED ON WEB SITE CAR CLUBS</U>
&gt; Product reviews from the co founder, moderators, racers and members of a popular car enthusiast club (Clubsi.com)
http://forums.clubsi.com/showf...art=1
&gt; Product review – Saw a 4 second improvement in track time.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1041907
&gt; Product review from the founder and web master of a car enthusiast club (Speed-society.com)
http://www.speed-society.com/f...locks/
&gt; Product review from a member (Team 4 R) of a popular car enthusiast club (Clubcivic.com). http://www.clubcivic.com/board...rbach
&gt; Product review from a Honda swap web site (Hondaswap.com)
http://www.hondaswap.com/forum...45556

<U>WHO WE ARE LOOKING FOR…DRIVING ENTHUSIASTS</U>
&gt; Driving Enthusiasts who own cars wanting to be among the very first in the world to test Frame Locks installed on their cars.
&gt; Need 2-3 Driving Enthusiasts that live close to Foster City California (near San Francisco). You will receive a free set of Frame Locks (retail $ 245), a $ 50 incentive and free installation. You will also get a first hand glimpse of the development process of automotive performance products and will participate in handling test drives. Best of all, you will have a vehicle with a significant improvement in both ride and handling.
&gt; Need 3-5 Driving Enthusiasts located any where in the USA who are willing to self install Frame Locks, test drive them and give us feed back on the installation, packaging etc. Price will be well below retail and near cost. If not satisfied, you will receive all your money back.

<U>IF INTERESTED, CONTACT US.</U>
&gt; Email us at manager@korbachperformance.com or call us toll free on 866-8KORBACH to get more details.
&gt; We can not assure that all applicants will be accepted. Our selection process depends on many factors including preferences to Moderators, Racers and friends of previous Beta Testers.

Thanks!

David Lawson
Körbach Performance
“Building the Perfect Ride”

 

j00 R not the Anti-christ....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon D &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">j00 R not the Anti-christ.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yah, thats Kris N!

 

A quote from Korbach website: "FRAME LOCKS are the missing element that offers ride and handling characteristics typically found in European sports cars"

Does this mean that the Euro ITR already have this "missing element"?
Because when I look at the bumper beam of the Euro ITR, it looks like it already have a huge bracket mounted by Honda on that same spot.....Patent owned by Honda Europe? LOL.

 

This is from the USDM Helms Manual:



The part where E goes, looks bigger in the EuroITR. But the bumper beam itself is smaller (like JDM front-end).

What is that gusset (Type R only) below E?

Euro ITR front end:




Modified by DutchITR1689 at 6:02 PM 2/4/2005

 

That gusset is most likely just a plastic filler. Nothing like the Korbach thingy.

 

htf is this piece gonna help me? i mean, are you serious about selling this product?





ROdney &lt;--- who is lost on how that improves handling

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rodney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">htf is this piece gonna help me?
ROdney &lt;--- who is lost on how that improves handling </TD></TR></TABLE>
IMO, the only thing it does, is tightening the bumper beam more to the chassis beam so it will act as a chassis stiffening bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DutchITR1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO, the only thing it does, is tightening the bumper beam more to the chassis beam so it will act as a chassis stiffening bar.</TD></TR></TABLE>


sounds like snake oil to me....

 

AFAIK, this chassis stiffening front bar is Type R only. Euro Civics don't have this bar.



The USDM Civic/Integra bumper support beam looks like it's not tightened firmly enough to the chassis to function as a chassis stiffening bar. It's only for absorbing bumper impacts. So, the Korbach bracket tightens that bumper beam to the chassis. IMO. It's a simple bracket. Don't think too far.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rodney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ROdney &lt;--- who is lost on how that improves handling </TD></TR></TABLE>

I started out a thread here: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=990843

Summary:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In the pictures below, the front rails and the bumper support resemble a "frame" when look down directly from top. In a stock car, the bumper support is bolted to the tip of the rails. With no welding or other obvious connection mechanism, it can be considered as a pin connection at both ends, allowing rotation when force is applied. During cornering, lateral load applied to the frame would yield this kind of movement:



The idea of the frame lock is to eliminate this pin connection for the purpose of reducing deflection at the tip of the rails, and transfer it into bending in the bumper support. By doing so, the movement of the frame would be similar to the picture below when lateral load is applied:



It could be a legit claim that the result from installing this lock is immediate and obvious, as many have already attested with first hand experience. However, here comes my concerns (which had already been brought up in an earlier thread):

1. The front rails are box members made up of thin gauge sheet metal. The frame lock connects to the wall of the box member with a single bolt (or 2). Sheet metal with holes drilled in it, and with bending induced that was not originally accounted for from the factory, the metal may fatigue after a period of time (note: there’s no backing plate to reinforce the wall). The wall of the rails might bulge out/in or deform and the bolts come loose.

2. Loads are reversible. Lateral load from the rails can be transferred into the bumper support thru the fixed connection at the ends, by the same token, load from front impact in the bumper support can also be transferred into the rails. When a collision occur on a stock car, the bumper support is designed to absorb the impact and buckle as shown in pic below. The pin connection at both ends allow the bumper support to take majority of the load and leave the rails intact. It is assuming that the impact was applied directly on the bumper support and was minor to medium, not enough to crush the whole front end:



However, when the end connections becomes fixed by installing the frame lock, the pattern of the frame would look like this in the event of a frontal collision:



By having a rigid connection, loads will be transferred into the rails regardless of size. Therefore, you are risking the damage on the front rails even when the frontal impact is not substantial.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I don't think it is rigid enough to cause this:



The chassis rail is much much stronger than the bumper beam....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DutchITR1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think it is rigid enough to cause this:

The chassis rail is much much stronger than the bumper beam....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Even if the rails have higher stiffness than the bumper beam, it would still induce bending into the rails.

Korbach has the following legal disclaimer on their product, which echoes what is described in the diagram:

a. Void the manufacturer’s warranty to the extent that I may be solely responsible for the repair costs of the car in the event of a collision.
b. Result in a more expensive repair in the event of a collision.
c. Adversely affect the crash performance of the car, including:

 

My god this dumb product keeps coming up. And the fact alone that what Wai is presenting may be true is enough for me to never consider using this product. That and the outrageous claims, and the fact that its not allowed to be used on certain real race cars also deters me.

The unibody of our cars is meant to crush in certain ways to absorb impacts, messing around with the rigity of critical frontal areas doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

 

If it's not allowed, just weld the bumper beam to the chassis (where "E" bolts sit). I've seen some track only ITRs in Europe with that beam welded tot the chassis.

 

Hi, You've just lost 2%, Why you might ask well it's quite simple the original post was locked/moved due to its advertisement type nature, this thread is no better.

Want to Advertise your company/parts on HT? Buy Ad Space like everyone else does, and Then Post it in the Sponsors forum.
https://secure.rely.net/ht-ads/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solid_Ride &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Okay...here goes...

The ITR group is a tough crowd....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please refer to and follow the instructions sent to Korbach earlier today.