what's your opinion on this? everything being equal suspension wise.

 

the one with the better driver

 

the EF with the better driver.

 

Neither? They are both wrong-wheel drive?


In all seriousness, I'd pick the DC so I'm not stuck with a mini-van-esqe steering ratio.

 

let me make it a little more interesting. would you rather drive/prep an SM ek w/ an itr motor swap, or an sts integra gsr? how competitive do you think that ek could be in SM on a national level? and yeah, yeah, i know the ol' civic si rules sts. no need to get into that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MMsportsRexSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the EF with the better driver.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

DC has shorter wheelbase, which I guess is better for Auto Cross. And, you would need to do something about the Granny Steering ratio in the EK(I am assuming you mean the Hatch EK).

 

GSR in STS.

In order to be a Championship contender in SM with any small FWD car you'll need to rob a bank, multiple times.

Chris Travis and Neal Tvosen (spelling) have two of the most highly developed FWD cars in SM, and neither were able to crack the top 3 this year.

No one has taken an Integra to a full STS build. I was close, I had the built engine and appropriate SPSS Koni's, but my car is sadly no more......

 

thank you, that's what i wanted to know.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Chris Travis and Neal Tvosen (spelling) have two of the most highly developed FWD cars in SM, and neither were able to crack the top 3 this year. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It's Neal Tovsen in a Volkswagen Scirocco.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elementary &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ek definatley has a better design than the DC does... but driving is important, you could have a good driver in a 88 sentra and a mediocre one in a nsx and blah blah</TD></TR></TABLE>

What on an EK is designed better than on a DC? The identical suspension? Or is it the mini-van steering rack? Or better yet, the longer wheelbase?

The only redeeming quality about a 96-00 Civic is that in theory the body is stiffer than a DC body (no hatch/wide open hole in the back).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the one with the better driver</TD></TR></TABLE>

80% driver, remember? but if you have to pick, go with an early DC. they don't weigh too much, about equal with EK's, and of course you have the plethora of reasons like steering ratio, wheelbase, etc. also, try to get one w/o the dam sunroof. 50lbs of wonderful topheaviness . . . oh yeah, and if we're talking one of the many classes where drivetrain swaps are a no-no, then you have way super huge monster more torque at every engine speed, as well as shorter gears.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">GSR in STS.

In order to be a Championship contender in SM with any small FWD car you'll need to rob a bank, multiple times.

Chris Travis and Neal Tvosen (spelling) have two of the most highly developed FWD cars in SM, and neither were able to crack the top 3 this year.

No one has taken an Integra to a full STS build. I was close, I had the built engine and appropriate SPSS Koni's, but my car is sadly no more......</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know Neal was at least looking at some "major" improvements on the Scirocco for next year, since he's finally has a good paying stable job again. Playing with modified suspension geometry, traction control, and some other little nifty things.

I did practice launches in that car at the Oscoda Pro.... DAMN. I've driven a number of pretty quick Honda autocross cars, but DAMN... that damn thing pulls. Go figure... ~250 lb-ft at the front wheels and sub 2000 lbs.

Also for refence, at least in a straight line, it hooks up in 2nd. 1st is pretty useless, but 2nd spins but doesn't do a burnout. And once it hooks up, you're seeing power/weight of a Z06 roughly.

 

Neal better invest in a very trick traction control.........

I am very anxious to see what Chris Shenefield can do in SM with his EF. Combine Tovsen's (did I get the speeling right?) power with the superior suspension geometry of a honda and then you've got something that might make the Bimmer's blink.

Getting the power to the ground effectively will be the key. I think part of the reason Rodney's set-up is soo freakin' fast is he has enough rubber to put the power down. Has Neal considered 15s or 16s?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elementary &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for your smart *** remark if you are spending money to build a race car a true hatchback design would almost always be better than a coupe... now an integra technically is a hatchback by class, but it isnt designed like a conventional hatch... </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd have to disagree. By their very design coupes (cars with trunks) are going to be stiffer. Now in a racecar this is all awash once you put in a welded cage, but still.

Imagine two boxes, one with an X in the middle and one without, which one will hold more weight?

It's the same principle that drives people like Will Turner to build full blown races cars from 4-doors instead of 2-doors.......

 

DC

 

Attn: *Thread jack*

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am very anxious to see what Chris Shenefield can do in SM with his EF. Combine Tovsen's (did I get the speeling right?) power with the superior suspension geometry of a honda and then you've got something that might make the Bimmer's blink. </TD></TR></TABLE>

And of course the fact that Chris will be driving it. ;-) I'm really watching that build up. They did such an awesome job of describing the build of the Redshift STS car, I hope they do that with this one as well. And I also hope it kicks some German butt. I'll be there (topeka) in person to find out...

This may not be correct at all, but I heard that the Scirrocco (sp?) is already experiencing some fairly severe clearance problems. Thus the relatively high COG. 15/16's would make it worse. That's just what I seem to remember from somewhere though.

 

well, a custome suspension can do wonders......

you'd be surprised just how much you can do, I'd imagine you could legally find a way to fit a wenzil wabbit-esqe front suspension.

 

In autocross, lighter is better. I don't know if a 92+ Civic with a B can be light enough. Most current SM cars are 2100 or so, and that 300 lbs is 15% overweight from na minimum... that's alot. The DC Integra is also overweight and will never win SM or STS at the national level... no chance as long as the lighter cars are there. So, my recommendation is going with an EF and maybe an EG because they are lightest. How much does a EK hatch weigh compared to an EG... I'm not sure exactly.

For our EF, we are using a d-series which is 100 lbs lighter than the B, a little over 1.7 liters, will flow lots of air when we are done, have high compression and good combustion chamber, and properly tuned (one of the nice things about eating dinner sitting on dyno rollers every evening). I think engine output will be right around 150 whp... wink wink..... And our weight estimate is right around 1800 lbs. And my honest estimate of this car is it'll have power to weight of a 340 hp BMW; so it'll be slower accelerating, but it should make up for it in turns.

RedShift is looking at building "crate" STS and SM Civic motors starting in the spring. It's an idea I've been throwing around for some time. Any thoughts on that? We'll see. As STS becomes more competitive and SM becomes a Honda playing field, perhaps there will be a demand. We are already looking to build an STS motor in a current National Champion ST Civic; so stay tuned.

Chris

 

how much are you looking to sell the engine for? and what components will you be using? core charge?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RedShiftChris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How much does a EK hatch weigh compared to an EG... I'm not sure exactly.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stock weights:
1992 Civic CX = 2094 lbs
1997 Civic CX (MT) = 2304 lbs

I don't think it's "apples-to-apples" though. If I recall, trim level and options were different for the 92's. I think basically everything was an option. PS, AC, radio, etc. And I think the 97' has 14" wheels instead of 13". A friend's 92 VX with a b series motor weighed about 100 lbs less than my 98' DX (d16 motor) with fairly similar modifications to the suspension, AC (we wouldn't give it up), PS, wheels, removed spare, etc. He was under 2100 lbs, but not by much. And he was at the point where further weight reduction was going to get very expensive. Probably would have been around 2045 with removed AC...

Under SM rules, I don't think it'll be tough (just expensive..) to get into the mid 1900's with an EG, but anything in the 1800 lb range will be virtually impossible. Maybe one of those crazy motorcycle motor rigs some people were talking about, but like that'll happen... never. It's too easy to just get an EF!

 

OK, I have pricing..... Honda-Tech sees it first! Our goal is to have 2 stages:
Stage 1: "Factory Rebuild Plus" - a solid factory rebuild with tender loving care taking care of only the key areas of making power.
Stage 2: "Class Leader" - the best class legal motor available

PRICING
STS/X D-series - Stage 1:$2200 Stage 2:$3400 class leader
STS/X B/H-series - $2400 solid rebuild or $3600 class leader
SM Boosted D-series - $4500 sleeved and boost ready (250+ whp)
SM Boosted B/H-series - $5000 sleeved and boost ready (300+ whp)
SM NA D/B/H-series - $6500 (220-270 whp at 9000 rpm)

For SM, custom specs available obviously... that class is wide open. Cores are $350 for SOHC non-VTEC, $500 for SOHC VTEC, $500-1000 for DOHC. RETURN MOTOR HAS TO BE REBUILDABLE FOR CORE CREDIT!!!!!!

And btw, I very much opposed to cheater motors, so please don't ask me to build one. I don't want to be associated with that. But I will build an excellent legal motor with extra tender loving care in the things that count. We have an excellent machinist we work with that hits requested spec and we NEVER rush an assembly.

I'll try to get info up on the website as I can. We are going to try to have a couple in stock at all times for quick delivery... maybe we can have our first 1 available at end of Feb.

Taking orders NOW!!!!

Chris
RedShift

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stock weights:
1992 Civic CX = 2094 lbs
1997 Civic CX (MT) = 2304 lbs
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 1996 Civic CX hatch is supposedly only 2222 or so, and didnt the DC's start in the 2300's?

I'd still go with the DC myself, just for the extra power and shorter wheelbase... you can always buy light-weight goodies.

 

i thought DC tegs had a longer wheel base then the civics?

 

Someone put together a nice spreadsheet of all the weights right here. I hope they don't mind the link (gotten off another thread).

http://homepage.mac.com/issues...s.xls