Per the title - thoughts on making it less this way? Adding more weight to the back is not preferred

 

Rear alignment (net toe out or uneven toe), rear lockup, or too much/uneven rear rebound damping would be my top three guesses.

K

 

Toe is what I was thinking...

It literally feels like the front is going soft, I've tossed around the idea of making the front suspension setup heavier (shocks aren't blown).

Rebound dampening is a very interesting thought, I will toy with that (it's the cheapest )

 

James, if you want to meet up sometime, I might be able to help out a bit. What brakes and suspension are you running? And definitely check out the rear alignment before anything else.

 

I think the Mugen Trailing arm bushings can help.

 

Bushings, toe...

I found that grabbier rear pads helped improve the overall feel of the car - that tends to make the rear lock up first though, which becomes another undesirable issue.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thoughts on making it less this way? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Toe-in the rear or zero toe.. stiffer rears (when they jump up under braking, they toe out).

Adjusting brake bias (or less sticky pads in rear) can help if that's the problem. (edit: That's 100% opposite what JeffS said above. Hmm! Maybe I'm thinking about it backwards, I'ma gonna think some more)

Good luck, I've been fighting this for a while, and I'm trying moderately stiffer springs all around to see if that helps.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the Mugen Trailing arm bushings can help. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I think the same

 

Really big spoiler. One that can seat at least 6 people!!

 

If your rear shocks are rebound adjustable, try softening them a bit as a test. I doubt greatly that this is your actual cause to the problem unless they are really stiff but it could help short term resolve the symptom and it costs nothing. More a band-aid then a repair but worth a shot for free and quick.

I too would investigate rear toe (I set mine at zero but a tad in will keep it strighter under braking) then bushings.

 

Wow thanks for all the input guys. SSC - check your PM

Current setup is Yokohama ES100's, Axxis Ultimates, GC's 400/500 on Koni Yellows full stiff. I'd like to try a different pad upfront (GT Sports or the like) once these burn down a little more.

I need to get the alignment checked again too, the DC Beltway is torture on a suspension...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I'd like to try a different pad upfront (GT Sports or the like) once these burn down a little more.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Be aware that switching to stiffer pads in the front will make the feeling worse. Prettymuch everyone with our cars desribes this same feeling at one point or another. You can do things to lessen it, but to a certain extent, it's just the way it is and you get used to it. Once you become comfortable with what "normal" is, you can begin to find the threshhold.

 

I've had this same issue w/my car.

My setup:

Koni/GC (350/400)

Full Rebound in the rear. No rebound up front.

Cobalt GT-sports in the front, OE's on the back.

Taking a bit of rebound out of the rear helped cure it to some degree, however, the car stopped rotating through the technical sections like I wanted it to.

In the end I decided to make sure to get all my braking done in a straight line, and be completley off the brakes for turn-in.

Even though it was still a bit unsettling during braking the car was no where near losing traction/spinning.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Adjusting brake bias (or less sticky pads in rear) can help if that's the problem. (edit: That's 100% opposite what JeffS said above. Hmm! Maybe I'm thinking about it backwards, I'ma gonna think some more)
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Here is how I see it.

Stickier (more mu, friction etc.) pads upfront induce more torque on the front of the vehicle, and forces more weight transfer upfront, causing the rear to unload.

 

My car went through a period of the same thing. It was brake bias. As I was running in T2 and was not allowed a brake bias adjuster, I played with front and rear compounds until I found a combo that didn't scare the crap out of me. Too much rear brake could be your problem.

Victor Penner

 

Looks like it's ultimately a balance issue where in I should be braking heavier, sooner, and trying to settle the car into the turn more.

 

rear is light.....means good oversteer.....good for drifting!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">rear is light.....means good oversteer.....good for drifting!</TD></TR></TABLE>

thank you chad, your wisdom is put so eloquently as ever.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

thank you chad, your wisdom is put so eloquently as ever.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sorry not in the best of mods tonight!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

sorry not in the best of mods tonight!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol, I thought what you said was funny

 

you have no skills. just brake in a straight line. gimme your car i 'll drive it.

lol. j/k. excuse me i'm still a lil high. hahah. very good thread. i'm just gonna read and soak it in.

actually seriously, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get some one you trust (and is skilled) to drive the car to get a 2nd opinion.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tweakmeister &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Current setup is Yokohama ES100's, Axxis Ultimates, GC's 400/500 on Koni Yellows full stiff.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think you're going to necessarily find a one-stop solution to your problem.

Rear spoiler: For goodness sake, leave the rear spoiler on or even go to the Mugen spoiler. It'll help keep the rear end down while you're rapidly slowing from 140 down to about 80, where it has less effect.

Rear alignment: When you go into threshold braking from high speeds, the rear suspension is unloaded in a way that will give you toe-out and positive camber. You therefore reduce the rear contact patches at a time that you would prefer not to, if you have a choice.

If your suspension is adjustable, you can give yourself slight toe-in and negative camber in the rear, which will <u>tend</u> to negate this problem, but not necessarily totally solve the problem, depending on from what top speed you're going into threshold braking.

Note that if you just have Ground Controls or something similar, you can lower the car a teeny bit to achieve the effect of extra negative camber, with the caution that you will have to do a toe alignment front/rear after doing this.

Brake pads: Front and rear pads should have approximately the same friction coefficient and heat range. For example, if you're using Cobalt Spec VR in the front, you should have ITS Spec in the rear. If you're using GT-Sports in the rear like most people do, it's possible you don't have enough torque on the rear rotors for the rear tyres to be braking as well as they could in the circumstance of immediate threshold braking from high speed.

Shock absorbers: Adjusting your Koni to full stiff with 400/500# springs is not necessarily going to give you the best handling you could have, especially if you're bouncing off gaters or the track's rough.

Spring rates: If, as I suspect from knowing about you this long, you are beginning to reach a top speed of around 140 before you go into threshold braking, then you should consider higher spring rates. To be honest, Ichishima says that if you're going into threshold braking from 140 then you need at least 14K (770#) in the front to feel fully comfortable.

Clearly, if you still drive your car on the street, this is a bit much and you're right, your 400/500 combination with Koni shocks is just an awesome compromise for both street and track.

However, it really is possible at many tracks we frequent to get your ITR up to 140 on a decent straight before you have to stomp on the brakes to make Turn One. You can be reaching those top speeds long before you're comfortable going to 700+# springs on the front, and this driver still has 500# springs on his car...so I am well familiar with the phenomenon you've described!

So unless you feel like spending money for SPSS valved Koni and going to 770# Front and 850# Rear, you only have the choice of playing with your alignment...or slowing down...or just being very careful because you know ahead of time it's going to happen.

If you've stomped on the brakes on my car from about 140, believe me, I know, if you even <u>think</u> about turning the car, it's going to turn.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you have no skills. just brake in a straight line. gimme your car i 'll drive it.

lol. j/k. excuse me i'm still a lil high. hahah. very good thread. i'm just gonna read and soak it in.

actually seriously, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get some one you trust (and is skilled) to drive the car to get a 2nd opinion.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

nah I'm just running a little bit rich...sorry about the fumes, can't help it when you're behind me all the time

*rimshot please*

--

Thanks George, I've seen a couple of your posts alluding to this and was hoping you'd post your full insights.

I think I'm off to get an alignment one of these days.

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=606414

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=606414</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK.

Slightly wordy, but most of it makes sense.

Nobody should be wordier than I am.