I took my ITR over to a friends undercapacity shop for it's roll cage after gutting it till 2 last nite and finishing this morning. What a bittersweet thing it is to gut such a nice car. And handing it over to a couple of guys who sneer at tin tops doesn't make it any less weird - but Steve is an awfully good fabricator, and he and Lee need the work right now.

I've backed off of going foreign touring car on the cage design. I'm still going to stitch weld the A and B pillars since this is legal under SVWC rules. We think we'll do door/side hoops rather than a halo hoop. Much plastic must die. Much has already.

Now I notice that everybody disposes of the stock side impact fuel tank protection, and most of these run a low lateral tube to replace it, which looks like a good trade on weight, and allows you to nestle the bottom of the main hoop back into the corner of the floor. Did you guys agonize over that at all? I realize that the kind of impact that's going to put that component to the test is going to be hard to walk away from. It gets you to thinking about ride height and where and how something is gonna hit you, and makes me think that those FIA style cages, where we run a tube on each side from low/midway up the main hoop laterally to the top of the tunnel, make pretty good sense. Scott Zellner says they tie their cages low lateral tube into the top of the tunnel - hmmm.

So how much relocation of the wiring/relays/flasher/etc did you do on the drivers side under the dash. I took the car over without removing the dash since I kind of needed it to drive the car. I'll be stripping it off tomorrow nite and will probably see more clearly what I'm faced with.

I guess I'm just wondering if any of you had unexpected obstacles, or if there's anything you'd do different.

Scott, who didn't hesitate for an instant to disagree with Steve on some detail during our 2 hour interview/overview and was asked "You've never worked with a grumpy fabricator before have you?".......I told him something like "I usually do my own work and found myself so intolerable that's why I've come to you"......

 

Here is a terrible picture of my cage. It's small, grainy, and the cage/interior is black on black, but it's an otherwise useful piece of info.
Sorry, it's the only one I have.
The builder has around 20 years of experience and the cage is top notch. Especially the way he basically armor plated the rear shock towers using the full 100 square inches allowed by the GCR.

http://www.kirkracing.com/img16.gif

 

Disclaimer: I'm going mostly from remembering some of the 3rd gen Integra cages that I've seen and liked. Warren's looks good, as did Andy's (photopoint is dead now so unfortunately I can't point you to pictures of either one). I've also admired RoadRacer's first hand.

Disclaimer 2: I have a bolt in cage, and due to financial constraints, it's going to stay that way for a while.

Let me ask a silly question. Would this actually buy you anything as opposed to *not* attaching this crossbar to the top of the tunnel? Seems to me that any strengthening you want, in that location and direction, would be the same if you had the same bar *not* attached to the hump (and thus not taking up one of your 8 available attachment points). From what I remember installing my bolt-in, most of the metal in the floorpan is more like cardboard than metal. Maybe the hump is stronger...

I know that the ECU has to be relocated. This doesn't seem like it would be hard, I've taken mine out before and noticed that there seems to be plenty of cable available.

You have already, or plan to, remove the A/C system and the airbags I assume? I'm imagine that the evaporator for the A/C would be in the way, at least partially, if you're going through the dash. It's kind of nestled up in there behind the glove box.

Afraid that's all I can offer...

 

#$*&@##! - I spent at least 30 minutes trying to unplug the dash connectors from the main fuse block, what a pain in the butt. I never figured out how to pull the top left yellow connector which was in my way till I gave up and used a hammer to bash the left most knee bolster bracket up out of the way - tomorrow nite I'll remove all three of those with a die grinder. Die - Die - Die you rotten son's of bitches (the brackets FYI - I'm not really homocidal over this yet - don't you love working on cars). I told Lee who was doing other stuff in the shop that some of these little things were like puzzles - "all right Mr. Honda engineer: very clever, very funny - thank you very much...."

So, it's pretty much ready to go. I'll have a windshield guy drop by to remove the windshield and rear quarter windows. We'll use 1.75 in 0.095, with a halo hoop. Probably tack the halo hoop and roof diagonal in place on the main hoop - then tilt forward to weld the tops. We are going to make the front lateral brace just above the knees/shins removable.

Did you guys just rotate the ECU over to the floor panel rise and leave the plastic wire enclosure - or did you remove the enclosure and replace it with plastic spiral or something?

The best part of the evening was telling Lee (Stohr) about my idea for a rear diffuser. After listening somewhat skeptically and making a bit of fun of me non-verbally if not verbally we both kind of moved on to other things. As I was working I noticed him looking at the back of the car from time to time, but since our conversation about it had gone so well I didn't really pay attention. A little later he starts talking about it again and tells me to look under the back of the car. He had propped up a diffuser off of his old US F3000 prototype under the back of the car and its vertical and width dimensions are pretty close to what would work. Cool. Where we would need changes (mostly in the length of the throat) we can easily modify his existing mold. Where we need control of the vertical dimension to the top of the diffuser in response to the relative angle of the throat we can move it forward or backward and trim the end of the diffuser accordingly. Might work out pretty good - or I might look like a total rice boy. The test is I suppose who you beat.

Which brings me to Andy. Setting aside rice boy appendages like splitters and trays to focus on driving better he did pretty good at Willow Springs this last weekend. He never went off, so theoretically if he had used the splitter it would have survived the weekend. He expressed the same thought I had had. Adding the splitter might increase front downforce out of proportion to rear (in general we expect a fairly long low pressure effect from an air dam or flat splitter tray where the center of pressure is behind the front axle line but the effect will be distributed more to the front - of course I could be wrong) - and not be fully addressed by cranking in max wing. That was part of my thinking about the rear diffuser - it would help in balancing the car by bringing the rear wing adjustment window back on center somewhat. I realize that prior to actual use of all items this is all shakey conjecture - but these are the relevant ideas.

So, progressing along. Gotta get a fresh SCCA medical form and get my schedule worked out.

Scott, who's latest factory system logon password is "beatandy"....how I'm gonna do that at Willow Springs is a mystery to me, sounds like he's getting that track wired pretty good.....

 

Well late to the party as usual. The yellow connectors are for the airbags. You need to lift one part which will now allow you to push another. Why did you plan to use the 1.75 tubing? I thought your car would be legal with 1.5 .120 DOM. I know it is only a 1/4" but it does seem like a big difference when you are lokking around it. Here is what I have observed & would suggest for your cage. You will be going to the shock towers for the rear braces, right? Do a 'strut bar' & one diagonal or a 'x' to stiffen. Run a addional bar across the car on the main hoop. Run it low so that it is a interference fit with the tran. tunnel. If it is allowed, you can weld it with a gusset. This will stiffen the tub & give you some side impact protection. Passenger side='x' bars=stiffer. Driver's side='x' or nascar. More protection vs. stiffer, you dicide. You will need to remove the whole dash. The way I have seen it done it the steering column now mounts to the underdash bar as does the tabs for the dash(fabrication baby!). The factory supports are removed all the way back to the firewall. The ecu relocated to the firewall. Take the harness all the way out. It only takes a few more minutes & you won't have to worry about it getting screwed up. Cool thing about a custom cage is that the plates (or perches) get to tie in the horizontal (wafer thin-Monty Python anyone?) & verticle surfaces. Front=rocker, floor, firewall. Main hoop=floor , rocker. etc. It is really easy to think about the perfect cage when it isn't your money or time building it. (Really, my next car will have a custom cage not a modified bolt-in with custom stuff added.)

 

I bolted my ECU into the glovebox. The cables are long enough.

 

Mike,

I noticed the relative motion in the connector and futzed with it alot - I couldn't get it to budge under any combination of forces. I'll give it another go.

I went 1.75 thin because I like bigger section - you are suggesting that 1.5 makes life a little easier on the fabricator?

My "perfect" cage was BTCC style - but I gave up because I didn't want the car precluded from too many potential classes.

Thanks for sharing - better late than never.

Scott,

Glovebox? I don't have a glovebox anymore. Did you notice how much that stupid thing weighed before you put the ecu in it? I figure that it's so heavy for noise and vibration reasons. Maybe somebody in Japan makes an ultra light carbon glovebox.

Scott, who has to stop the insanity....wait, just a little more.....

 

You must undertake a massive picture-taking mission after this "event" is over.

Thank you much,
William

 

Oops, I guess I'm a bit late here. My cage is 1.5" x .120 mild steel. The same cage design has been happily crash tested for me by some Grand-Am cup guys

Follow the link in my sig for pictures. Scott, if you want me to take a picture of something specific, let me know.

Warren

 

Mine is 1.5 120 wall as well.

Actually the glovebox is so heavy because there is a large metal plate in it. Probably something crash-test related. Just take the plate out.

Scott, who left his glovebox in because Honda Challenge, Grand Am Cup, and IT rules state that "the dashboard must remain fully intact."

 

Scott,

Ummm.....but the lateral bar will run right thru a major part of the glovebox....yours didn't I presume. I'm gonna have to look at this harder....and try to find this plate you mentioned.....

My 2001 GCR says "Other than modifications to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash "board" or panel shall remain intact." If I run a lateral tube thru where the glovebox mounting points are, can I omit the glovebox? Or should I clearance it, and mount it into place via other means? Scott - did you pull that plate out of your glovebox?

Scott, who will probably achieve an unfair advantage in his dashboard somewhere....without really setting out to do so....Gawd, I just can't help myself.....

 

My dash bar actually runs across the top of the dash in the "nook" where the glass meets the dash. It fits up in there quite nicely, but I'm sure it was a bitch to get it in. I did this mostly because I didn't have the time (or energy) to remove the dash.

The plate in the glovebox is pretty obvious. Just take out all the screws. It's amazing how complicated and overengineered that glovebox door is.
Oh yeah, removing the plate does away with some screw recepticles. I found that glue worked fine in putting it back together without the plate.

Scott, who's pretty sure there was no value in writing this because Scott is already disassembling his glove box.

 

The tube diameter probably doesn't make a hill of beans to the fab guy. Maybe it is just me, but I think that it looks better. Depending on how close it is installed to the a-pillar, etc, the thinner tubing is easier to see around. The padding seems to fit around it better too. Especially the high density stuff which isn't as flexible.
NASA rules say that you need the 'dash pad'. Pretty sure you don't need the glove box. Dummy plates to cover the hole where the airbag & radio were. Cars that I have seen, as long as the top pad portion is there it's all good.