Thinking about a "beginner" welding machine?
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From: Knoxville, tn, 37912
Thinking about a "beginner" welding machine?
Others may disagree, but I will voice my thoughts here...
You don't know if you'll even like welding? Then don't buy a machine at all...borrow one or go to somebody else's place and use theirs.
When you are a kid and learn to ride a bicycle, you get training wheels at first. After you get the steering idea down, you take off the training wheels.... but did the training wheels really help you to learn to ride? No. You can't learn to ride a bike with training wheels on it. Ok, off that soapbox for now...
So your parents pull off the training wheels and probably throw them away. Hell, they're not worth anything and you're not going to use them anymore. I mean, you may have a bike that was $70, and the training wheels aren't worth even $5.
Now, lets relate this to welding machines. If you want to go get a piece of **** machine from sears as a beginner machine, you will end up in the same situation... when you decide to step up to a better machine, this one will likely be worthless. So you've wasted money that you could have put towards a good machine that will last you forever, not just while you're learning to weld. And, you'll be kicking yourself in the *** when you see how much difference there will be when you have a good machine vs a junker.
Also, as mentioned, training wheels don't teach you to ride a bike....and if you have a POS welding machine that won't work for **** no matter what you do, you're not going to learn to weld with it either.
Trust me here guys..there's a reason nearly every experienced welder will not reccomend a $99 mig welder from Harbor Freight....even for a beginner.
That said, I'll tell you my advice for the cheapest machine I'd reccomend. It's the Hobart Handler series machines. Sure, they run about $400...4 times that of the $99 pos at Harbor Freight. The difference is that it will last longer, work better, have better service, and better availability of parts. I'd bet my left nut that it would outlast the HF junker by about 6-10 times, making it much better for the money. Even one day if you buy a $5000 TIG machine, this little Hobart will still be your best option for many things, such as auto body work. You will NOT outgrow this machine, even if you get another machine.
So, in short, I don't believe that a "beginner" machine is anything other than a waste of money. Buy somegthing good, and it will last you much longer. SHould you decide to get rid of it, you can sell it and get good money back for it. The better name brands of machines hold resale value pretty well. For example, I got a Lincoln PT175, had it for 2 years. I paid $1500 and sold it for $900...and that was a deal for that guy. I saw one go on ebay for $1200 just a week before. If you buy a POS machine, you may not even be able to sell it when you no longer want it.
You don't know if you'll even like welding? Then don't buy a machine at all...borrow one or go to somebody else's place and use theirs.
When you are a kid and learn to ride a bicycle, you get training wheels at first. After you get the steering idea down, you take off the training wheels.... but did the training wheels really help you to learn to ride? No. You can't learn to ride a bike with training wheels on it. Ok, off that soapbox for now...
So your parents pull off the training wheels and probably throw them away. Hell, they're not worth anything and you're not going to use them anymore. I mean, you may have a bike that was $70, and the training wheels aren't worth even $5.
Now, lets relate this to welding machines. If you want to go get a piece of **** machine from sears as a beginner machine, you will end up in the same situation... when you decide to step up to a better machine, this one will likely be worthless. So you've wasted money that you could have put towards a good machine that will last you forever, not just while you're learning to weld. And, you'll be kicking yourself in the *** when you see how much difference there will be when you have a good machine vs a junker.
Also, as mentioned, training wheels don't teach you to ride a bike....and if you have a POS welding machine that won't work for **** no matter what you do, you're not going to learn to weld with it either.
Trust me here guys..there's a reason nearly every experienced welder will not reccomend a $99 mig welder from Harbor Freight....even for a beginner.
That said, I'll tell you my advice for the cheapest machine I'd reccomend. It's the Hobart Handler series machines. Sure, they run about $400...4 times that of the $99 pos at Harbor Freight. The difference is that it will last longer, work better, have better service, and better availability of parts. I'd bet my left nut that it would outlast the HF junker by about 6-10 times, making it much better for the money. Even one day if you buy a $5000 TIG machine, this little Hobart will still be your best option for many things, such as auto body work. You will NOT outgrow this machine, even if you get another machine.
So, in short, I don't believe that a "beginner" machine is anything other than a waste of money. Buy somegthing good, and it will last you much longer. SHould you decide to get rid of it, you can sell it and get good money back for it. The better name brands of machines hold resale value pretty well. For example, I got a Lincoln PT175, had it for 2 years. I paid $1500 and sold it for $900...and that was a deal for that guy. I saw one go on ebay for $1200 just a week before. If you buy a POS machine, you may not even be able to sell it when you no longer want it.
Thread Starter
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From: Knoxville, tn, 37912
Re: Thinking about a "beginner" welding machine? (essex)
the Dynasty 200 is a very nice machine!! The ONLY thing that you may want in the future MAY be a little more power. However, this machine will hold value well, espeically if it's well cared for. It's a good idea to take an air hose and blow out the internals of them every month or so. Too much dust collecting causes the internals to not cool as well. I wish I could afford a Dynasty 200dx... I actually just got a used 350 syncrowave...one of the older big ones. It's a great machine, especially for the cost. It will suit my needs well though. If you decide to go cheaper than the Dynasty, there's all kinds of good deals out there on used machines. The one I got was $1500 shipped. That's cheaper than a 180SD, but MUCH better of a machine.
A lot of these cheap machines you see everywhere these days are about like buying a Pyramid amp for your car stereo...it may make you happy if you've never had anything else, but in the end you will hate it and it won't be worth anything more than a short walk to a trash can.
A lot of these cheap machines you see everywhere these days are about like buying a Pyramid amp for your car stereo...it may make you happy if you've never had anything else, but in the end you will hate it and it won't be worth anything more than a short walk to a trash can.
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Re: Thinking about a "beginner" welding machine? (Engloid)
lol pyramid amps....haven't heard that name in a while 
Well the dynasty says it only hits 150 amps on 230v But the PT hits 185 on 230v is this a problem? I need it for aluminum mostly.
http://millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf
Edit :around here there are no Thermal arc dealers or I would buy one of those, so the options are:
Dynasty 200dx
180SD
PT 185
The last 2 are almost $2000 cheaper in my area
Modified by essex at 8:06 PM 12/11/2004
Well the dynasty says it only hits 150 amps on 230v But the PT hits 185 on 230v is this a problem? I need it for aluminum mostly.
http://millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf
Edit :around here there are no Thermal arc dealers or I would buy one of those, so the options are:
Dynasty 200dx
180SD
PT 185
The last 2 are almost $2000 cheaper in my area
Modified by essex at 8:06 PM 12/11/2004
Thread Starter
OG Fabricator
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,438
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From: Knoxville, tn, 37912
Re: Thinking about a "beginner" welding machine? (essex)
Remember how the Pyramid amps said they put out 200 amps? Did they? No, they didn't. Therefore, I'd not pick one machine over the other because one says it's "rated" a few amps more. Think about Fosgate and Soundstream amps...they win competitions because they underrate them. I once bought a Fosgate 40watt amp that had an actual output of 142watts.
=========================================
And, as you will read below, the duty cycle chart that shows the dynasty at 150 amps does NOT mean that is its maximum output. Duty cycle basically tells how long you can work the machine at a given amperage setting.
=========================================
I looked into these a bit:
LINCOLN PT185
Spec Sheet on PT185: http://www.mylincolnelectric.c...12815
Rated at 185amps with a LOW 15% duty cycle. This means that if you are welding at 185 amps, you will only be able to weld 3 minutes of every 20 that it's on. In other words, you can use it for 3 mins and it will likely kick a thermal overload and take 20 mins to cool down and turn back on.
At 90 amps, it has a 100% duty cycle. Keep in mind that aluminum typically takes quite a bit more amperage than stainless or carbon steels.
Digital meters. They can come in handy at times, especially for beginners.
The PT185 says it comes with a torch that's aircooled and rated at 150amps.....which is less than the machine is rated for. I have personally owned one of these torches, and they will get too hot to hold with regular leather gloves when welding 3/16" aluminum. Not only that, but the torch handle is very brittle and will break if you drop something on it. It is thin and brittle. I know, I used to have one.
It has "Micro-start technology"...wow...big word for nothing special.
Auto-balance for AC... useless. I'd rather have manual.
Built-in pulser- It has only one function, Pulses Per Second.
"Fan As Needed" - this means that the fan only works when it needs to, saving electricity.
Power input is only capable of single phase. Not that you need 3 phase, but that ability will make it worth more for resale.
3 Year warranty on parts and labor.
======================================
MILLER 200 DX
http://millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf
Rated at 150 amps with 60% duty cycle (notice PT185 was very low duty cycle here), 100 amps at 100% duty cycle (lincoln hit 100% at 10 amps less). Hell, they'd both probably hit 200, but the duty cycle would be lower. Notice on page 2 of the spec sheet, the amperage range does show a high of 200 amps. The duty cycle specs do not indicate maximum amperages for either machine.
Offers more user controlled variables for Pulse feature, not just Pulses per second.
Offers sequencer controls. (probably wont need then though).
Digital Meters.
Post flow, preflow
This is an inverter type machine, and has MUCH better abilities for welding of aluminum. Rather than be a set 60hx frequency, you can change it fro 50-120hz.
"Fan-on-Demand" Just like Lincoln machine, just a different name for it.
Automatically senses the voltage input and switches automatically.
only 45lbs.
Extended Balance Control range (30-90% EN) (an advantage of most inverter type machines).
$188 for water cooled torch (not including water cooler)
3yr parts and labor warranty
======================================
MILLER 180SD
Max amps at 180.
150amps at 40% duty cycle...so it stands to reason that it can probably compete well, if not beat the PT185's crappy 15% at 185 amps.
Digital Meters (won't make a better welder, but they're nice to have)
Counts welding time and arc starts (dunno why you'd need it)
No pulse option.. (falls last here, but since the PT185 has crappy pulser, it's not far behind)
======================================
As I've always said, Lincoln may be a little cheaper at times on the prices of the machine, but in the end, you will pay more...see below for an idea of how they screw you after you buy their products. It all adds up over the years you hope to own the machine and you will pay more for the Lincoln than you think in the long run.
Water Cooled Torch Comparison:
Lincoln = $359 for a 10foot lead
Miller = $188 for a 12foot lead
Advantage: Miller ($171)
Water Cooler Comparison:
Lincoln = $792 with no reference to what amperage range it's rated for
Miller Coolmate3 = $590 rated up to 600 amps!!
Advantage: Miller ($202) and likely rated higher than the Lincoln.
Foot control Comparison:
Lincoln= $277
Miller= $226 Advantage Miller ($51)
======================================
SUMMARY
The Dynasty is a clear first, but of course it costs quite a bit more. I don't think I need to explain this decision because it is so clear already. I know it costs more, but if the price is an issue, your best bet is a used machine with more power, rather than a new one that has less. The only debatable issue is which of the other two should get second place. Although the Lincoln PT185 boasts a whopping (sacrasm) 5 more amps, I think that the Miller SD by far will make up for this by having a much better duty cycle. Also, the Lincoln mas a built in pulser, but with it not having but one variable to change (pps), this is not a major issue to consider...whereas the price of optional accessories down the road is. So, in short I value the cheaper accessories and better duty cycle more than I value 5 more amps and a crappy pulser.
Rankings:
#1 Dynasty 200DX
#2 Syncrowave SD 180
#3 PT185
=========================================
And, as you will read below, the duty cycle chart that shows the dynasty at 150 amps does NOT mean that is its maximum output. Duty cycle basically tells how long you can work the machine at a given amperage setting.
=========================================
I looked into these a bit:
LINCOLN PT185
Spec Sheet on PT185: http://www.mylincolnelectric.c...12815
Rated at 185amps with a LOW 15% duty cycle. This means that if you are welding at 185 amps, you will only be able to weld 3 minutes of every 20 that it's on. In other words, you can use it for 3 mins and it will likely kick a thermal overload and take 20 mins to cool down and turn back on.
At 90 amps, it has a 100% duty cycle. Keep in mind that aluminum typically takes quite a bit more amperage than stainless or carbon steels.
Digital meters. They can come in handy at times, especially for beginners.
The PT185 says it comes with a torch that's aircooled and rated at 150amps.....which is less than the machine is rated for. I have personally owned one of these torches, and they will get too hot to hold with regular leather gloves when welding 3/16" aluminum. Not only that, but the torch handle is very brittle and will break if you drop something on it. It is thin and brittle. I know, I used to have one.
It has "Micro-start technology"...wow...big word for nothing special.
Auto-balance for AC... useless. I'd rather have manual.
Built-in pulser- It has only one function, Pulses Per Second.
"Fan As Needed" - this means that the fan only works when it needs to, saving electricity.
Power input is only capable of single phase. Not that you need 3 phase, but that ability will make it worth more for resale.
3 Year warranty on parts and labor.
======================================
MILLER 200 DX
http://millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf
Rated at 150 amps with 60% duty cycle (notice PT185 was very low duty cycle here), 100 amps at 100% duty cycle (lincoln hit 100% at 10 amps less). Hell, they'd both probably hit 200, but the duty cycle would be lower. Notice on page 2 of the spec sheet, the amperage range does show a high of 200 amps. The duty cycle specs do not indicate maximum amperages for either machine.
Offers more user controlled variables for Pulse feature, not just Pulses per second.
Offers sequencer controls. (probably wont need then though).
Digital Meters.
Post flow, preflow
This is an inverter type machine, and has MUCH better abilities for welding of aluminum. Rather than be a set 60hx frequency, you can change it fro 50-120hz.
"Fan-on-Demand" Just like Lincoln machine, just a different name for it.
Automatically senses the voltage input and switches automatically.
only 45lbs.
Extended Balance Control range (30-90% EN) (an advantage of most inverter type machines).
$188 for water cooled torch (not including water cooler)
3yr parts and labor warranty
======================================
MILLER 180SD
Max amps at 180.
150amps at 40% duty cycle...so it stands to reason that it can probably compete well, if not beat the PT185's crappy 15% at 185 amps.
Digital Meters (won't make a better welder, but they're nice to have)
Counts welding time and arc starts (dunno why you'd need it)
No pulse option.. (falls last here, but since the PT185 has crappy pulser, it's not far behind)
======================================
As I've always said, Lincoln may be a little cheaper at times on the prices of the machine, but in the end, you will pay more...see below for an idea of how they screw you after you buy their products. It all adds up over the years you hope to own the machine and you will pay more for the Lincoln than you think in the long run.
Water Cooled Torch Comparison:
Lincoln = $359 for a 10foot lead
Miller = $188 for a 12foot lead
Advantage: Miller ($171)
Water Cooler Comparison:
Lincoln = $792 with no reference to what amperage range it's rated for
Miller Coolmate3 = $590 rated up to 600 amps!!
Advantage: Miller ($202) and likely rated higher than the Lincoln.
Foot control Comparison:
Lincoln= $277
Miller= $226 Advantage Miller ($51)
======================================
SUMMARY
The Dynasty is a clear first, but of course it costs quite a bit more. I don't think I need to explain this decision because it is so clear already. I know it costs more, but if the price is an issue, your best bet is a used machine with more power, rather than a new one that has less. The only debatable issue is which of the other two should get second place. Although the Lincoln PT185 boasts a whopping (sacrasm) 5 more amps, I think that the Miller SD by far will make up for this by having a much better duty cycle. Also, the Lincoln mas a built in pulser, but with it not having but one variable to change (pps), this is not a major issue to consider...whereas the price of optional accessories down the road is. So, in short I value the cheaper accessories and better duty cycle more than I value 5 more amps and a crappy pulser.
Rankings:
#1 Dynasty 200DX
#2 Syncrowave SD 180
#3 PT185
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 41
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From: USA
Do you think the dynasty will hold its resale value more than the sd180 and foremost do you think it is worth the extra cash for hobby welder. I hate buying stuff twice, but at the same time a good, versatile machine under 2000 is what i am trying to find. I want to do alot of thin aluminum workd. Its hard to strike a balance of needs and wants
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,351
Likes: 1
From: Winnetka, Calif, USA
Re: (NuRv)
When I first saw this string, I thought it was another request for a "beginner" welder.
I've got to say that I TOTALLY agree with what Engloid has said!!
I paid about $500 for my Miller MIG and feel very good about the investment. I know that should the need come up, I can get parts for it. It can do 98% of all the welding that I need to do. (I've got friends with bigger welders should the need come up) So, it should last my lifetime.
Well worth the money!!!!
Wes
I've got to say that I TOTALLY agree with what Engloid has said!!
I paid about $500 for my Miller MIG and feel very good about the investment. I know that should the need come up, I can get parts for it. It can do 98% of all the welding that I need to do. (I've got friends with bigger welders should the need come up) So, it should last my lifetime.
Well worth the money!!!!
Wes
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OG Fabricator
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Knoxville, tn, 37912
Re: (NuRv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NuRv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you think the dynasty will hold its resale value more than the sd180 and foremost do you think it is worth the extra cash for hobby welder. I hate buying stuff twice, but at the same time a good, versatile machine under 2000 is what i am trying to find. I want to do alot of thin aluminum workd. Its hard to strike a balance of needs and wants</TD></TR></TABLE>
The Dynasty will hold value better. Here's one way to look at it: If you go to sell a car, and you've painted it green, you've automatically lost about 9 of 10 potential buyers....so demand is low and your sale price will be also.
Likewise, the SD and the PT are both single phase machines and the average professional shop that wants a used welding machine will prefer 3 phase. Probably 99.9% of all hobby welding machine owners will only be able to use single phase. So, by getting a machine that will support single and three phase power input, you will have a larger pool of potential buyers if you choose to sell.
That said, if you want to stay around $2000, but want versatility....you may want to consider a used machine. Here's a machine like mine: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...=WDVW
You will have plenty of power with this machine. It will be quite a bit larger than the Dynasty, but it also will put out just over 400 amps at a higher duty cycle. This is no toy machine, it's professional quality...tried and tested winner in heavy industry. That's why I got one. The price is nice, and I've used them on different jobs ever since they came out new. Keep in mind that if you buy something like this, shipping my run a bit of money because it's about 600lbs. If you look at the panel, just above the Miller logo on the lower right, you'll see where there's 3 dials, with no ***** there. This is where the pulser option was put into the machines that had it from the factory. You really won't need pulse for hobby work, and if you do you can later buy a pulser that plugs into it. This machine will also accept the accessories listed in my previous post. All the Miller stuff is pretty universal. Where the smaller machines will boast welding 1/4" steel, this one will smoke *** on 1/2" or more...
Basically, if you're limited to $2000, I'd reccomend a used machine that will satisfy your welding needs....rather than a new one that will let you down the first time you want to weld thicker materials.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I paid about $500 for my Miller MIG and feel very good about the investment. I know that should the need come up, I can get parts for it. It can do 98% of all the welding that I need to do. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What model did you get for that price?
The Dynasty will hold value better. Here's one way to look at it: If you go to sell a car, and you've painted it green, you've automatically lost about 9 of 10 potential buyers....so demand is low and your sale price will be also.
Likewise, the SD and the PT are both single phase machines and the average professional shop that wants a used welding machine will prefer 3 phase. Probably 99.9% of all hobby welding machine owners will only be able to use single phase. So, by getting a machine that will support single and three phase power input, you will have a larger pool of potential buyers if you choose to sell.
That said, if you want to stay around $2000, but want versatility....you may want to consider a used machine. Here's a machine like mine: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...=WDVW
You will have plenty of power with this machine. It will be quite a bit larger than the Dynasty, but it also will put out just over 400 amps at a higher duty cycle. This is no toy machine, it's professional quality...tried and tested winner in heavy industry. That's why I got one. The price is nice, and I've used them on different jobs ever since they came out new. Keep in mind that if you buy something like this, shipping my run a bit of money because it's about 600lbs. If you look at the panel, just above the Miller logo on the lower right, you'll see where there's 3 dials, with no ***** there. This is where the pulser option was put into the machines that had it from the factory. You really won't need pulse for hobby work, and if you do you can later buy a pulser that plugs into it. This machine will also accept the accessories listed in my previous post. All the Miller stuff is pretty universal. Where the smaller machines will boast welding 1/4" steel, this one will smoke *** on 1/2" or more...
Basically, if you're limited to $2000, I'd reccomend a used machine that will satisfy your welding needs....rather than a new one that will let you down the first time you want to weld thicker materials.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I paid about $500 for my Miller MIG and feel very good about the investment. I know that should the need come up, I can get parts for it. It can do 98% of all the welding that I need to do. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What model did you get for that price?
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,351
Likes: 1
From: Winnetka, Calif, USA
Re: (Engloid)
Well, I guess the price was more like $550 by the time I got the bottle and regulator required to make it MIG.
It's a MM130 and runs off of 110, not 220. This was something I was looking for due to wanting to be able to weld anywhere.
I think it's prefect for a "hobbist". If I was doing this for a living, I'd look for something larger.
Wes
It's a MM130 and runs off of 110, not 220. This was something I was looking for due to wanting to be able to weld anywhere.
I think it's prefect for a "hobbist". If I was doing this for a living, I'd look for something larger.
Wes
Thread Starter
OG Fabricator
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,438
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From: Knoxville, tn, 37912
Re: (Wes V)
Very understandable...
Sure, you could have gotten a cheaper machine...but in the end, I think you made a great decision. Miller makes good stuff. Even if you decide to get a more powerful machine in the future, you will likely want to keep this one for the small jobs like sheetmetal work and auto body stuff. Should you decide to sell, it will hold value better than a POS from Harbor Freight.
Sure, you could have gotten a cheaper machine...but in the end, I think you made a great decision. Miller makes good stuff. Even if you decide to get a more powerful machine in the future, you will likely want to keep this one for the small jobs like sheetmetal work and auto body stuff. Should you decide to sell, it will hold value better than a POS from Harbor Freight.
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