It really stunk not having enough ompff going up the climbing esses. Normally in my audi, it's got enough juice and it's fat enough that it'll be sliding around a bit, but in my stock civic, I could keep in floored pretty much the whole way from turn 5a up to the oak tree without my ES100's making any noise at all. I took one of my students out and I think she almost fell asleep

Was it my poor driving skill into 5a or is it normal for a stock civic to be like that? The civic was adequate enough at Summit, that I was contemplating keeping the stock engine and possibly running in H5 in 2 seasons. Now I'm really back to wanting an ITR engine so I can have a little more fun, but that would mean no HC for me due to $$ in H1.

Any suggestions? Stay away from VIR? Get sticky tires? Learn to drive better? Sell the civic? Get an ITR engine? Forget HC cuz I'll only be a backmarker?

 

It's hard to say without a lap time and further information about you and the car what the problem is. But yeah...in an H5 car I am not surprised that the esses were drama free. The power is just not there to make it fast enough to be anything other than just steering.

As far as competitive driving, it might be the case that while there's no drama for you...there's no drama for the rest of the H5 guys. Y'all just brake a lot less than us in the higher powered cars.

As to actual suggestions...get out of that left hook / right hook complex as fast as you can. Even if doing so means you have to throw away left hook.

 

was that you in the red hatch?

I was in the white miata with red top.

I figured you had a swap, I wouldnt say you were slow at all for a stock engine

in my miata and street tires I am foot to the floor from 4 to 10. Southbend needs a little tap.

 

In the Del Sol on street tires I can pretty much do the same all the way to oak tree without much drama, but that is still my favorite part of the course.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SNIP
Was it my poor driving skill into 5a or is it normal for a stock civic to be like that? The civic was adequate enough at Summit, that I was contemplating keeping the stock engine and possibly running in H5 in 2 seasons. Now I'm really back to wanting an ITR engine so I can have a little more fun, but that would mean no HC for me due to $$ in H1.
SNIP</TD></TR></TABLE>

Who says H5 guys (and gals) have less fun?!? We just don't have to tinker on our cars all the time, and we aren't afraid when the charge card bill arrives...

 

This is of course on race tires, but my little 4 speed D15B1 sees close to 110mph through the esses, which is enough to have plenty of sliding and weightlessness over the yump. Then you get to South Bend and just lift and go (some people don't lift in ITC cars, I'm not one of them).

The only place I find boring at VIR is the back straight, and thats only if I don't have a bump draft. With a draft, well, thats not boring.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Was it my poor driving skill into 5a or is it normal for a stock civic to be like that?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That sounds about right. I'm hammer down from 5A to south bend.

edit: Correction: I'm hammer down from left hook (the left turn before 5A) all the way to S.B. Perhaps that's your problem....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">edit: Correction: I'm hammer down from left hook (the left turn before 5A) all the way to S.B. Perhaps that's your problem....</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would like, um, die and stuff if I did that

 

At least you have 50+ more hp. And probably 200 fewer pounds....

 

H5 &gt; H1

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get out of that left hook / right hook complex as fast as you can.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What is that (seriously)? Have you been talking to my shrink? ;-)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">was that you in the red hatch?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, if I had known that was you, I would have stopped by to say hi.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is of course on race tires, but my little 4 speed D15B1 sees close to 110mph through the esses</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was lucky if I saw 100 down the back straight

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm hammer down from left hook (the left turn before 5A) all the way to S.B. Perhaps that's your problem....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm, no quick lift right before 5a? Street tires or stickies? Maybe I need to setup for 5a differently.

Looks like some type of swap is coming


Modified by Another Drew at 9:28 AM 12/8/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was lucky if I saw 100 down the back straight
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn thats slow

Time for a d16z6...

 

the motor isn't the major problem... the tranny is.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That sounds about right. I'm hammer down from 5A to south bend.

edit: Correction: I'm hammer down from left hook (the left turn before 5A) all the way to S.B. Perhaps that's your problem....</TD></TR></TABLE>

No lift for 5? In which car and what tires? Never tried that in the RX-7, but only b/c I never even considered it would work.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Looks like some type of swap is coming

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wouldn't, and heres why (assuming racing is in your future).
First off, once you do the swap thats just the tip of the money spending iceberg. That puts you in H1 for NASA and SPU for SCCA, neither are very budget concious. Also remember that the faster a car is, the harder it is on brakes, tires, hubs, etc.
All this means speed, it also means more $$$$$ and more time wrenching.

Your current car is H5 and *might* soon be in ITB with SCCA, where it will be very competitive ( I say might because its under discussion, but no decisions have been made). I'd wait if I were you.

Finally, if you're only seeing 100 down the back straight, there is a problem. Its either you (in oak tree) or the car or both. I'm getting 114 from a car with less than 90hp and a 4 speed if thats any indicator for you.
Kirk's VW with a bone stock drive train would only do 105 (which pretty much made us the slowest car out there for the 13 hour) until we cut off the exhaust behind the cat. Then it did 110 and our lap times came down by about 4 seconds (yeah, seriously). It still needs help though, mostly a FD and a diff.

All I'm saying is think before you leap. Do you really have the budget to build an H1 car???
Anyway, anybody can drive a fast car fast. Try driving a slow car fast... Yeah, it ain't easy, but it can be done.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike C &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the motor isn't the major problem... the tranny is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh yeah, it could definitely use lower gearing too.

elgorey, this you right in the picture right?

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/170167.phtml

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No lift for 5? In which car and what tires? Never tried that in the RX-7, but only b/c I never even considered it would work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I imagine MM meant in his SE-R on Toyos/Hankookies.

I have to lift (just enough to set the front end) in my SE-R entering the lower esses... but I've always been on stock springs at VIR...

Andy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


elgorey, this you right in the picture right?

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/170167.phtml </TD></TR></TABLE>

It is my car, but thats actually Jenny (WRXrJen) who codrives the car pretty frequently. I got her assigned as a student so thats me in the passenger seat.

 

Well Max, you rode with me through that section at north course....

Yes, that's with my SE-R and Toyos/Hankooks. Here's what you do: Slow down more than you think you should for left hook (left turn just before 5A). Turn very late, and hug the left side, do not track out to the right at all. You've just thrown this corner away. But that's OK, because now you don't need to hit the brakes for 5A at all. Even when I was on street tires and stock suspension, this is what I did. Now, I *teach* a slight lift of the gas for 5B to get the front to bite. What I *do* is keep it floored turn early and hop the curb. The only time I come off the gas from left hook to SB is to shift from 3rd to 4th. It is essentially a straighaway. That's why you want to throw away left hook and not track out right afterwards. You extend that "straightaway" by 150-200 feet. I was up there one day 2 summers ago and saw 10-12 Nascar guys practicing. Gordon was the only one who did it even remotely right. No one else was even close.

*note: this is the school line, not the racing line.....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its either you (in oak tree) or the car or both.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That right there is THE MOST IMPORTANT turn on the track. It leads to the longest straight. I have likely well over 10,000 miles on this track total as a driver/instructor. I need barely more than one hand to count the number of people I've seen do this turn REALLY well.


Modified by MaddMatt at 8:42 AM 12/8/2004


Modified by MaddMatt at 8:48 AM 12/8/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> What I *do* is keep it floored turn early and hop the curb. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats the ticket

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">*note: this is the school line, not the racing line.....

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, its the racing line too. Blow left hook and you're dog meat all the way to Oak Tree, especially in a low HP car. You simply must throw left hook away so that you are set up to make the next two right handers without taking your right foot off the floor. And if you're like me, sometimes you just go straight through snake without even moving the wheel (OK, this really IS a racing line. Don't do that in a school).

This is a big reason that I tell people over and over again to learn how to drive without big horsepower. HP hides mistakes and can make a bad driver look pretty good. In a 2200lb, 200hp H1 car you CAN blow left hook and still hustle up to South Bend pretty well. In a 2200lb 85hp ITC car... You can't. Make a mistake in left hook or Oak Tree and there ain't no hiding it. You pay for it for about 1/2 a lap (or more) in a big way.

Scott, who can reach his car's maximum velocity 3 times per lap at VIR (I love me some VIR).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, its the racing line too.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I imagine so. But if 3 ITC cars go into left hook together, 2 are going to be very disappointed in the outcome. In that case, the racing line is where ever there isn't another car. Which may include the grass....it's pretty tight in there, even in a school environent.

 

I do the very same thing as Matt, it was the link Chris Cobetto showed me and he said the same thing, throw away left hook and hammer down to oak tree.. of course when he showed me we were running the north course but I was having issues with 4, trying to take it to fast.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">. Here's what you do: Slow down more than you think you should for left hook (left turn just before 5A). Turn very late, and hug the left side, do not track out to the right at all. You've just thrown this corner away. But that's OK, because now you don't need to hit the brakes for 5A at all. Even when I was on street tires and stock suspension, this is what I did. Now, I *teach* a slight lift of the gas for 5B to get the front to bite. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is what I do (on street tires and stockish suspension). When I would try it without lifting, I'd end up with a wheel in the grass in the esses... it would push just a bit too much to pull it off. Maybe I do need to turn in just a hair earlier... hmmm....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe I do need to turn in just a hair earlier... hmmm....
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Street tires+no lift in 5B=you better put the right side tires in the grass (which means turn early) if you want to make it out in the same shape you went in....

How I drive VIR: turn early and floor it....