im just kicking around some ideas

i have a 92 civic hatch im building and im considering tasteful fender flares, like the speed world challenge audi rs-6/cadillac cts, not a fiberglass widebody bodykit. it would allow me to widen the track and also get like 245 tire front and rear.

if i added a 10mm spacer on all corners and increased the contact patch would there be serious benefits?

would turn-in or steering feel be affected? the car is around 2000lbs and im thinking it would not get any heat into the wider tires... so it may not do anything and would turn out to be a waste of time and $

thanks

 

And what are you going to be doing with the car?

 

scrub radius goes all to hell doing that without custom suspension pieces.

but wider does = more traction latterally.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">scrub radius goes all to hell doing that without custom suspension pieces.

but wider does = more traction latterally.</TD></TR></TABLE>

wider also = more rolling resistance.

It's a compromise, but I haven't heard of too many Hondas (especailly Civics) raving about faster lap times (assuming that's what we mean) with such a wide tire.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by euclid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a 92 civic hatch im building and im considering tasteful fender flares, like the speed world challenge audi rs-6/cadillac cts, not a fiberglass widebody bodykit. it would allow me to widen the track and also get like 245 tire front and rear.

if i added a 10mm spacer on all corners and increased the contact patch would there be serious benefits?

would turn-in or steering feel be affected? the car is around 2000lbs and im thinking it would not get any heat into the wider tires... so it may not do anything and would turn out to be a waste of time and $

thanks </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't see a 2000lbs hatch without FI would need 245 tires front and rear. You would be carrying a lot of unnecessary weight - rotational too - around the course.

Increasing the track width = good in general. 10mm spacer is reasonable and doable without needing aftermarket body work (depending on wheel offset too). But why would you want such a thick spacer in the back?

The drawback is that the turn-in response would be slower due to the increase in scrub radius; also, you're adding stress to the wheel bearings.

Without knowing what you're trying to achieve, it's hard to agree or disagree with what you proposed.

 

I have heard for a 2000 poound civic, a 205 tire is plenty enough and that anything higher is pretty much overkill, any truth to this?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pat McGroin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have heard for a 2000 poound civic, a 205 tire is plenty enough and that anything higher is pretty much overkill, any truth to this?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd say there is 0% truth to this. I would like much more than a 205 on my ~2080 lb civic. Fitting it under the rules of my class is the hard part.

Don't be afraid to try different setup and tire sizes. Don't always listen to every piece of advice you hear either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by euclid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im just kicking around some ideas

i have a 92 civic hatch im building and im considering tasteful fender flares, like the speed world challenge audi rs-6/cadillac cts, not a fiberglass widebody bodykit. it would allow me to widen the track and also get like 245 tire front and rear.

if i added a 10mm spacer on all corners and increased the contact patch would there be serious benefits?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You'd have more grip, overall, but running more track would put more strain on peripheral parts of your suspension.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would turn-in or steering feel be affected? the car is around 2000lbs and im thinking it would not get any heat into the wider tires... so it may not do anything and would turn out to be a waste of time and $

thanks </TD></TR></TABLE>


Turn in would initially be numbed down a bit ,for which you could compensate with toe adjustments.

There certainly is a point where more and more tire reaches a point of diminishing return. One of the most obvoius reasons is rolling resistance and added mass (bigger tires weigh more, etc) and you'd end up at a point where the added % of corner speed would be nullified by the lacking acceleration.

I'd say start with the widest tire that'll fit your fenders, then go from there; anyway you cut it, 245 is a lot of tire.

 

if it's for low/mid speed autox, get the widest possible tire. period. if it's for higher speed stuff like road racing, you don't really need that much tire.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if it's for low/mid speed autox, get the widest possible tire. period. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Make sure you have a co-driver. Those bigass tires are REALLY hard to heat up, especially if your club doesn't run in heats.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if it's for low/mid speed autox, get the widest possible tire. period. if it's for higher speed stuff like road racing, you don't really need that much tire.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure about that. Since Honda engines have low torque output, it would be very difficult to carry tires with such a big resistance at low/mid speed. In addition, as others have already mentioned, it would be hard to generate heat into the tires especially in autox.

 

the FD should be open. so one can always spend the money for custom FD. i said widest possible tire, with in reason of course. generally speaking you can never have too much tire for autox. corner speed is the name of the game.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the FD should be open. so one can always spend the money for custom FD. i said widest possible tire, with in reason of course. generally speaking you can never have too much tire for autox. corner speed is the name of the game.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

What the hell are you talking about?

custom FDs = big $$. And if you cant get any head in the tire, its worthless.

 

don't u got better things to do than trying to pick my stuff apart constantly? who asked you? grow up. did the poster ask about cost feasibility? this is a technical discussion. i got better things to do than replying to immature kids like you. i'm going to sears point now. la la la . always acting constantly like you know it all and give short rude replies in this forum. just because you're the mod doesn't mean you need to be rude to everybody that comes in and ask things nicely.

 

There was recently someone talking in this forum who said that they ran a full second faster at, I want to say, Road Atlanta, by going from 215s to 205s. Of course, RA does have the really long *** straight.

 

hah! immature kids... sorry I cant go to the track because I have a job.

If you want a technical discussion, then you should have some reasoning other than just "use the largest tire you can find to stuff under there and get a custom FD to compensate" which is just not true (no heat = no grip) and really not feasible for 99% of autocrossers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">don't u got better things to do than trying to pick my stuff apart constantly? who asked you? grow up. did the poster ask about cost feasibility? this is a technical discussion. i got better things to do than replying to immature kids like you. i'm going to sears point now. la la la . always acting constantly like you know it all and give short rude replies in this forum. just because you're the mod doesn't mean you need to be rude to everybody that comes in and ask things nicely.
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my car goes faster with a 205 upfront as opposed to a 225.

it's not all about corner speed...its all about transition speed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Goullish &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was recently someone talking in this forum who said that they ran a full second faster at, I want to say, Road Atlanta, by going from 215s to 205s. Of course, RA does have the really long *** straight.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Think you are referring to RacerBowie going from 225s to 205s at Road Atlanta (specifically due to the big long back straight) but you have to take in the whole of it. A.) Miatas are much more bricky than the CRX/Acura he's racing against and B.) Miatas aren't brake challenged like their Hondacura counterparts (I kinda think we need the fatter tire for braking but I would definately not put money on that). I think its primarily a rolling resistance thing but it might also be a drag thing for him too. On a CRX, we (Hracer and I) could see the difference on the backstraight (in our CRXes) between a Hoosier 225 and a Toyo 225 in a straight line and it was surprising. But again, that might be more a rolling resistance thing than a drag thing - I don't "know" that though. I am inclined to try a 205 on a 7" rim to see how improved the straightline speed is (and how detrimental it is to cornering - I am hypothesizing none at all vs. a 225 on a 6" rim).

Not really adding anything helpful I am sure but I think in a vaccuum, to say that the car went from a 225 to a [205] and went a second faster is a bit misleading.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not really adding anything helpful I am sure but I think in a vaccuum, to say that the car went from a 225 to a [205] and went a second faster is a bit misleading.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, it's not worth anything technically, just the discussion spiked my memory and I hate my job, so I decided to post.

 

haha, I really gotta work on how I phrase things

I meant I wasn't adding anything helpful. I think you brought up a valid point, I was just trying to say there were a few more things at play (not that they would change the outcome, simply that they may make it more or less of an effect). I also believe he (RB) said he'd run the 225s at Roebling Road due to handling reasons (or maybe lack of getting up to top speed on a straight ??).

 

What did you mean when you said that Miatas were more "bricky" than the competators?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Goullish &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What did you mean when you said that Miatas were more "bricky" than the competators?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry that I am late to the party. What he meant was that my car aerodynamically sucks donkeyballz compared to the crxen and whatnot in ITA.

On a twisty track (or at an AutoX) I would run the biggest tire that I could keep warm and that didn't just KILL the car's straight line speed (or ability to get off slow corners, in the case of an autoX.)

 

thanks to all for the input, the car is not for auto-x or a specific class so rules requirments are not the consideration, i have enjoyed hpde and driving schools and i dont have the schedule to be able to race in a series, so this is purely an enjoyment project.
i am completely open to tranny gearing and fd to compensate for increased tire diameter. 245/45/16 is about 2" taller than 205/50/15 which translates into a 4.9 ats fd just to get the car back to stock itr gearing. so second, third, and fourth gears would probibly end up being changed.

after considering all this the past few days, plus thinking about the disadvantage of the 2" higher stance, the increased weight of the 16s and big tires, plus the cost to compensate the gearing it doesnt make sense to go that big.
a 225/50/15 would be a better compromise. unfortunatley no mater the wheel offset it seems i will have clearnce problems in the rear of my 92 civic hatchback, either on the trailing arm or the fender.

so assuming i have to aggressivley roll the fenders to run the 225/50/15 anyway, and i dont have to pass class rules, should i run a 10-15mm spacer on each corner? if it will help in roll stiffness its posible the tire will remain in better contact with a good camber setting. ive pretty much got the springrates where i want them so i dont want to just space the front out and end up with more oversteer than i need

has anyone tried spacers with back-to-back testing to see if it actually does help with stability and grip? in theory it really should. thanks again

 

up front it would be usefull but in back, i don't see why you would need to run that big of a tire or a 10-15mm spacer.


of course there are downfalls to runing different sized tires front and back, and that is also assuming your going with the "front biased" suspension setup, there are alot of varibles like wai said

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if it's for low/mid speed autox, get the widest possible tire. period. if it's for higher speed stuff like road racing, you don't really need that much tire.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the FD should be open. so one can always spend the money for custom FD. i said widest possible tire, with in reason of course. generally speaking you can never have too much tire for autox. corner speed is the name of the game.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghettoracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is a technical discussion.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Man, gettinga Phd must be easy where ever you're from ; drop two vague generalities, and coin them as a "technical discussion"? Nice.

I guess I'll be put 315s up front, since your logic is infallible; oh wait, the utility of your statements are contingent on being "within reason." So, what you're saying is, you're not really saying anything at all, right?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i got better things to do than replying to immature kids like you. i'm going to sears point now. la la la . </TD></TR></TABLE>

To flog someone else's car, on their dime I suppose ?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">always acting constantly like you know it all and give short rude replies in this forum. just because you're the mod doesn't mean you need to be rude to everybody that comes in and ask things nicely.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wish he'd just ban you, like tPat did at cc.com. You don't offer anything pertinent to the topics at hand, and the only threads you really contribute to, are those you start, about yourself, driving other people's cars.