...... which is the fastest and most expensive category for my car basically!! DOH!!!

So, now I have to lay out this huge build-up plan, which I'm all for doing, but just how competitive, and how fast are the GT classes??

The Civic '88-'91 hatch fits in either GT-3, or GT-5, but it is a little vague as to what you can do. It looks like in GT-3 that you can do a B16A swap with a 100lb weight penalty, at least on the same model CRX. Basically everything inside the engine bay is fair game as long as it is in somewhat original location. Theoretically, I could do a complete B16A build with 300 degree cams, and 14:1 compression it looks like ....... a 200+ whp engine in a 2,080 lb car (with my fat azz in it).

But in the GT-5 class, it says that the engine is a 1.3 with 3 valves per cylinder ...... that ain't in my car! So what's the deal? They let you run the older engine in the newer chassis and stick you in the "slowest" class??

Since I've already done the complete wiring conversion to make my car an MPFI engine instead of the stock DPFI, I'm limited to what I can do severely as far as classes go. And since the GT category mods follow where I had always wanted to take the car anyways, I figured it would be the way to go .......

Any GT racers out there? Give me some ideas/pointers to get me going on the right path!!

 

Man, thats an expensive way to go.! Ever looked into running the honda-challenge?

 

Here's the little bit I know of the GT classes.

1. They don't seem very highly attended, at least at the races I've seen here (at VIR) in the southeast. There's lots more SS and IT cars.
2. Unlike IT, the GT classes do play at the Runoffs.
3. Not many people are good enough / rich enough to get an invite, in a GT car, to the runoffs
4. Properly set up GT cars that have a chance of winning are obscenely expensive. Take a look at the issue of Sportscar where they go over the results from the runoffs...and just carefully look at the GT cars.

Your signature says you have a Type R, but you're talking about building a hybrid CRX with penalty ballast and all that stuff...I'd suggest that if you have the hybrid bug that bad, consider running in H1 in the Honda Challenge. http://www.honda-challenge.com. That will be LOTS cheaper, there's already some hybrids on board, and it'll just be cool.

Of course...I'm biased

 

Yeah, but because I already did the MPFI swap ...... I'm stuck in H1, which is basically everything I need to do to be competitive in GT3 ...... go figure!!

I did some more research online. The car can run in GT-5 with the base '84-'87 block with the '84-'87 12 valve Si head on it. This puts it with a lot of slower cars, but makes it a lot harder to get parts for (only so much available for the older engine), and I would have to run the 1.3 L block, but could bore it over .047. I'm sure I can get an older engine and head for pretty cheap, but would still need to do all the work to get it competitive.

The way I see it, if I have to do all that work anyways, I might as well build the motor I want, and not something smaller. It all depends on how tough the GT-3 class is (which I'm thinking is one of the most competitve classes of all ..... ).

 

The Type R was sold last October, or I'd be running that one ......

I've met Jack, and he runs H1 with his hybrid I believe. But to be competitive in H1, I would still need to do everything I plan to run GT-3 ......... hmmmmm.

 

.Not necessarily. You won't need any special 14:1 compression piston goodies or any of that stuff. Bottom end must be sourced from Honda parts. Also, you have to run DOT tires in Honda Challenge...GT cars run slicks, which are again more expensive.

Jack's car is fairly representative of what we expect to see in H1. Remember too that a fully built GT motor *will* be a hand grenade. Not true of an H1 motor.

Either way you go will be fun though. I must admit it'd be interesting watching the buildup of a GT car...

 

The reality now is that every competitive GT car (even in the little classes) starts life as a pile of seamless DOM steel tube, resin and glassfiber. Suspension pieces are all custom made and brakes are as big as a medium pizza. They also run on actual race tires which get to be really, painfully expensive. The speed potential difference between a car that starts life as a stock "tub" and one that is purpose built is pretty huge.

Kirk

 

Unless you have an assload of disposable income, don't even THINK of running a GT car. Front running GT cars are tube framed, purpose built cars with fiberglass bodies. Think NASCAR and Trans Am and you are close.

A front running GT engine will be a serious grenade as well. A buddy of mine runs a GT-1 Corvette and his engine requires a complete rebuild every 600 miles. No, I didn't leave out a zero, that's six HUNDRED.
Oh yeah, that isn't even a front runner, he finished 3rd in the Southeast last year.
And one more thing, his YEARLY budget is more than what I have in the building of my car.
Get the picture?

I can't stress enough how much GT is the wrong way to go, especially for a beginner. It is the fastest, most expensive, most time consuming choice of all. You'd be better off starting all over with a different car (ITA CRX maybe).
OR running your hybrid in ECHC H1. You'll find that this will take plenty of time and money, but NOWHERE near what building a competitive GT car will take.

 

What Roadracer said plus:

You really do not have any idea what GT cars are like. Do the words second and third mortgage help?

I know someone that runs a mini in GT. It's at least 16:1 compression, and revs to astronomical rates like 12k+. It's fast, when it runs, but it usually ends up with extra crankcase breathers in the middle of a weekend.

Uh... I highly suggest that you go to a race and crew for a GT car. Hint: bring work gloves. I crew for a showroom stock car and an SRF, and I don't do ****, other than swap wheels. It's great GT. Hehehe.

Warren

 

So, Warren, you run SCCA ITE (or would run if your car ever left the garage) where you can pretty much do anything you want to the car - how's that been for you?

I ask that in this thread because as a general principle rules (beyond power/weight, and perhaps a claiming rule) bum me out. I'm planning out my new cage and I am struggling over the legal issues vis the IT standard cage and the 6-point rule with narrowly defined 7th & 8th points. People advise me to stick to that so that future rules problems can be avoided - it appears that NASA cage rules are very similar. What is amusing is that so many IT cages I've seen have been welded to the A and B pillars anyway and nobody ever makes a stink at local races.

That sucks - I want more structure for both safety and rigidity. In ITE I will likely never get into trouble, same for TCRA, but beyond that who knows. The thing that gets me is that the cage rules are based in a budget mentality, but the incremental cost of a few more tubes is minimal - I've read lots of discussion on this elsewhere.

I know the ITR will never be in ITS, may someday be in EP, and who cares about GT classes because if I had that much money I'd be hanging out on the 550 Maranello board - so maybe I should build the cage I want since the ITR will ever be in tweenerville. Anybody got a compelling argument one way or the other?

Scott, who has a problem with problems.....I never run out......

 

Yep. Build it to be legal for ECHC - so when you come to VIR this year you're legal.

--Karl, who thinks if Scott actually makes that long a tow...we'll let him in with a 100 point cage, if that's what he has...

 

Well said Scott and Karl. If you're going to build a GT car, you probably don't need much of the Honda. Maybe a few pieces here and there, maybe the length measurements, maybe the molding of the body, etc. As for the engine, most are custom built (probably cheaper to buy one already built). As Scott said, Butch's GT-1 Vette is fast as crap (and he is one hell of a driver), but be sure you have an endless budget. And if you miss a shift, be prepared to spend $10K. Good luck in reaching your decision.

 

That is not at all true. Check the ITE rules. ITE in most regions was created (as a regional only class) to give ex-IMSA/Firehawk type cars a place to play when their pro careers are over. Some regions require a logbook from another race series to be eligible. I think in DC, the concept is the same, but the logbook isn't required (thus, Warren can run his "GrandAm/WC" ITR without ever having run a GrandAm or WC race).

Again, not true. Cages are limited to prevent tube-framed cars. Which cars have you seen with illegal cages?

 

Well!!

This has been both enlightening and insightful!!

I had planned on going to some of the early season races to see just what it will take ....... now I definitely need to!

Income is definitely an issue, so I certainly need to rethink it to be sure. Hmmmm .......

I really appreciate the responses you guys, it helps immensely!

I guess when I get home on Wednesday from my vacation, I'll look at what will be best for me as far as what to do, and peruse the Honda Challenge rules again!

Thanks!

 

Alistair,

Yeah, I know you can't do anything literally - like no Production cars on DOT rubber. I know about the log book / grandfather thing and that it isn't enforced typically. But ITE rules are concocted by each region (around here SF region is the basis) - and I think another reason for it's existence is to be a general catch all class. And that's what I need to run my winged, funny braked, threaded body shock, diffuserized, stock motored ITR in - against things like C4's and 944 Turbos. If I beat them they should be too embarrased to protest me. I suppose that Super Production (SPM, SPO, SPU) is the real catch all - but that's fuel cell and race rubber territory which is further than I want to go.

But the general sentiment behind so much rulemaking is EXCLUSIONARY. I've followed alot of ravings on the H-Production board and I come away believing that SCCA doesn't want too many people racing (the new regime not being much different than the last). NASA, TCRA, and the Council's are supposed to be INCLUSIONARY alternatives.

So I say fine, give me a class that's for oddballs (who can drive well hopefully) and let us run what we brung. Rules that are meant to reduce cost can never truly stymie those with and determined to spend money.

I sorta get your meaning about tube frame cars - but I think it's illusiory. I think the rule prohibiting penetration of the firewall and rear bulkhead effectively draw the line. A couple more tubes inside the driver compartment (and even added structural reinforcement) are not appropriately prohibited. They cost nothing compared to an engine development program, or a shock tuning program which are legal in most other classes regardless of restrictions - we've all heard about showroom stock racers dynoing dozens of engines to pick the one with 2 more HP than the others.

The cars I've seen with illegal IT cages are typical IT cars with 6 or 8 points PLUS gussets attaching the cage to the top of the A-Pillar and the Top and Middle of the B-Pillar.

I know that expressing my discontent on this is wasted energy, and that the investment of hundreds and thousands of racers ensures that rule revision will occur at a glacial pace. This is one of those parts of racing that is a negative - so many racers I know race mostly for social reasons and put up with obstacles and irritants for the sake of that.

Scott, who really just likes to drive and dice....it's just that simple.....and I like neat stuff....I realize that I'm the problem....

 

Karl,

ECHC rules are - My mods will bump me from H2 to H1. Simple and clean and INCLUSIONARY (note: Scott is not all hung up on political correctness - he just doesn't know a single word that better conveys the idea). Uh-oh, tell me that H1 is in the same run group as H2 and H3.

The way you've written the cage rules with an unqualified 8 points max and no firewall penetration would allow me to build a cage the way I'd like (except for tying into the A and B pillars). SCCA has clarified their IT cage rules such that you can't feed any vertical load from the firewall into the cage.

Tow, who said anything about towing? I'm trying to talk Andy into it too. This is a huge undertaking and may not make it from imagination to reality, but I'm gonna try. Damn this is a big country. Of course it's not as bad as say making the trip from Ukrania to the UTCC round in Vladivostock.

Scott, who thinks that with just a couple more cage attachment points he can smack down the east coast guys...."I never suspected it could make that much difference"....

 

Hey Scott. I just plan on running ITE enough to keep my SCCA license, in case I get stupid and team up for an enduro. ITE around here requires that you meet rules from another sanctioning body, or (pro) series. Is that vague enough for you?

I'm pretty much just gonna set it up for H2, and not worry about how well I do in ITE. I'll just try to avoid being a speedbump for the Trans-Am cars and 500hp Porsches, etc...

You've seen pics of my cage. I skipped tying the cage to the a/b pillars since it's not legal for what I do. I'd love to run with them though. Oh well. The chassis still flexes a little bit, but not much. Realistically the most important thing is tying the front to the back. Side to side is going to be plenty strong w/ 6 point + 2 foot protectors.

I don't think I've really answered anything here, just kind of rambled.

Warren

 

Start Building! Sure don't like that front upper damper mount.

Pictures borrowed from locashracing.



















[Modified by DB1-R81, 9:06 PM 12/31/2001]

 

Thanks DB1.

I think those pictures pretty much sum up what it takes to compete in GT classes.

Honda Challenge??? Anyone???
One of the MANY reasons we started the whole thing in the first place.

 

And it looks like this car is in pretty bad shape too. Apparently the dude smacked a wall or something and turned his whole motor sideways! I'm sure that'll be expensive to straighten back out!

 

Must've been a VERY hard hit... it turned an FWD car into a RWD car.

Jon
mmm, carbon fiber, yummy...

 

OMG! Nice to see a purpose built FR Honda powered car that is doing something other then the 1/4 mile.



[Modified by SPiFF, 12:53 PM 1/2/2002]