Alright let me explain. I got into an argument with some guy after I said I removed the front sway bar on my DA Integra. He said I was an idiot for doing that only causing my car to roll even more. So for the info. I have H&R Race Springs, Tokico Illumina shocks, Sus Tech rear sway bar, Full-Race crossmember/traction bars, and a C-pillar bar(mostly for looks). Now I am not the most knowledgable guy when it comes suspension. I know a little and the way I have my car set up I think it handles great. I do auto-x my car and I have run with the stock sway bar on and I think it handles a lot better w/o it. I have no problem kicking the back end out and it doesn't hardly understeer at all anymore. So what I am asking is for some advice on wether or not I was right for removing the sway bar in the front. Again, I think it helps balance it out and seems to me like it handles better. Your advice is only to my benefit

 

Many hard core FWD road racers do not run a front sway bar, and use the biggest rear bar they can find. Along with proper spring rates and shock settings, it helps shift the cornering balance away from understeer and towards neutral/overtseer. Also helps reduce corner exit wheel spin (along with a good LSD).

Generally speaking, most auto-xers prefer a front bar to prevent tail-happiness during those quick transitions. Driver preference.

 

Front sway bars on FWD cars are a very debatable item; hell, sway bars in general are debatable.

Often times, the choice to run a front sway bar on a Honda comes down to driver preference. Turn-in feel and body roll may be adversely affected, but many drivers here are willing to take these minor trade-offs to have a more neutral handling feel. Some aren't. It also can depend on suspension design . . . some Mac-strut cars will benefit a lot from a front sway, whereas the benefit may not be as great on a double-wishbone car.

Also, the car will be more of a handful in transitions without the front sway - which is more of a concern for an autocross course (which will usually have a lot of short, fast transitions) than it is for a road course (which will usually have a lot of longer, steady-state turns).

I personally run a larger DA Integra front sway bar on my CRX, but I didn't install it to control body roll - my primary reason was to bias the car a little more toward understeer, since I was having trouble controlling it at the limit with my rear-biased spring rates and the short wheelbase (it is a twitchy bastage!). Now that I have gotten more accustomed to driving the car, I have been considering removing that front bar to give the front tires more grip (especially the inside tire since I don't have an LSD ) and make the car more "loose." Maybe I'll disconnect it for an event just to see if it feels the way I want it to . . .

If body roll is that big of a concern to this "some guy," then tell him to just get stiffer spring rates for the front and quit bitching

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChaseIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> He said I was an idiot for doing that only causing my car to roll even more. So for the info. I have H&R Race Springs, Tokico Illumina shocks, Sus Tech rear sway bar, Full-Race crossmember/traction bars, and a C-pillar bar(mostly for looks). </TD></TR></TABLE>
With just drop springs on your car you'd probably be better off with the front bar in most situations. If you start running rates in the 700# range up front and 900+ in the rear then you can keep body roll under control with just spring rate...

As always my $0.02

Christian, who knows it has to do with personal preference but still agrees with your friend

 

at the point the inside rear tire leaves the ground you have done everything you can from a dynamics standpoint to maximize front grip. if the car continues to roll and lift the inside rear tire higher, understeer will increase proportionally to roll.

double wishbone suspension cars don't have as many geometry issues as mac strut cars, but the camber curve is FAR from ideal. reduced chassis roll is beneficial in these cars as well. how much? well, for reference, my STS car uses a 24mm front bar and 700# front springs. i run a tad over -2.5* of front camber. the chassis STILL rolls a touch more then i'd like. probably be a little better with a 900# front spring, but there are some other issues that crop up with that much front roll stiffness, street tires, and an uncaged chassis. i could run more negative camber, but then pay a price in ability to put down power and brake.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If body roll is that big of a concern to this "some guy," then tell him to just get stiffer spring rates for the front and quit bitching </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have 10K springs in the front and 8K in the rear in addition to a stock front swaybar and rear 22mm ITR bar. I can lift the inside rear in any hard hairpin, with the car being more neutral than Switzerland around most corners. It will only understeer when you've pushed nearly to the limit. After that comes progressive oversteer, which I've only encountered a few times...

The DA has less front travel than an EG or DC, so I would think you would want some sort of weight transfer device in addition to stiff springs to stay off the bumpstops. That and the fact that I want to corner as flat as possible in the shitass stock seats so I can stay behind the wheel.

The camber issue is also something that apparently will benefit from having a front sway. Especially on street tires and an open diff. It's not like I have an abundance of power to spin away through corners.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Many hard core FWD road racers do not run a front sway bar, and use the biggest rear bar they can find.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dunno about the hard core part, but that's my setup. I have been runnign with no front bar and a ST rear bar (along with 500F/650R, etc) and I'm much happier without the front bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I dunno about the hard core part, but that's my setup. I have been runnign with no front bar and a ST rear bar (along with 500F/650R, etc) and I'm much happier without the front bar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you road race a FWD car, you're hardcore!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Many hard core FWD road racers do not run a front sway bar, and use the biggest rear bar they can find. Along with proper spring rates and shock settings, it helps shift the cornering balance away from understeer and towards neutral/overtseer. Also helps reduce corner exit wheel spin (along with a good LSD).</TD></TR></TABLE>

What he said.

I removed my front bar in my GT4 Civic. My H1 93 Civic will probably bave a bar on it for the first shake down session, since I'll be more concerned with bolts not falling off then setting fast lap. Then I'm about 99% sure it will come off when I start setting up the suspension.

 

I run no front bar on my prelude and accord.. Did wonders to corner traction! both have 800# front springs but weighed between 2600-2700lbs..

 

Hmm .. I prefer to run the stock front sway on my 2575# GSR. When the front sway was disconnected the car felt washed out. It had very sloppy turn in and much less front end bite.

With suspension setup, basically the best way is the way which works for you. There is no one answer.

 

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice. Like I said, I noticed a difference for the better once I removed my front sway bar. I also have an LSD so I am happy with the way it's set-up. So looks like I made an *** out of this guy since he decided I didn't know what I was talking about. I'll refer him to this topic, oh wait he already replied. Sorry dude, guess you don't know as much as you thought you did.

 

Man, you really are a ********. Your original post was worded so stupidly that there was no way you had any real explanation behind it. Not only did you not point out all the downsides to removing the front bar, but you didn't even explain what you need to do to do it right. But I guess halfassing is right up your alley, right?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChaseIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And for any of you who like to auto-x or just like to turn fast, I would also recommend taking off your front sway bar. It seems like you would want to keep the front end stiff under turning, but it's the opposite. You want the front soft since front wheel drives understeer, and the back to be stiff to help it want to oversteer, thus balancing it out so you can turn REAL fast and be stable.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My car can "turn fast" just like your MaD T1t3 whip, and judging by your "full race" suspension set up, your car isn't exactly gonna grid at Suzuka, either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SPiFF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmm .. I prefer to run the stock front sway on my 2575# GSR. When the front sway was disconnected the car felt washed out. It had very sloppy turn in and much less front end bite.

With suspension setup, basically the best way is the way which works for you. There is no one answer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree.

I actually upgraded my front bar from the 22mm LS bar to the 24mm GS-R/Type-R setup and was pleased with the results; this is used with the 22mm Type-R rear bar. My thinking on the subject is that there's more to it than just the understeer/oversteer balance of the car. What feels fast or easier to drive isn't always faster. I can throw really crappy tires on the rear and get the car to rotate really well, but I'd bet money that I'd be faster with good grip on all 4 corners, even though that means more understeer. I think sway bars and many other choices are pretty similar. I'm afraid understeer is a fact of life, but I've found that the best way to deal with it is through how you drive it.

 

If anyone is hardcore its travis

 

i'm running no front sway in an STX prelude. it rotates better, rolls more, has sloppier turn in, but i like the way it feels.

450#/550# springs.

i can't say if it's faster or not, since my offseason started oh, 5 months ago. thanks to a lovely CEL and a troublesome brake pipe.

yay.

 

I ran 400 fronts and 500 rears with a 21 mm rear bar and i was ok, but the quick short tracks we have for Autocross up here i was loosing too much in weight transfer and the car did nto resond to my direction chagnes. there was NO udnersteer, some slight oversteer if is was cold. But is was sloppy. I did not get good time. I chagned to 600 up front and 500 rears and the same bar. The next event i finished first in SM for the day. (b18c1/ITR TRANNY 2200lb (with driver) EG on Hankook zr11 R compounds with 14 x 6.5 rims 205/55/14 tires)

I think that if you have 500+ front springs up front on a EG with a d series and 600_ with a b series you are OK for no front bar. Othewise you should run a front bar.

my observation. Next year i am trying a 22mm up front/ 1" in the rear 500 rear springs and 600 front springs.....if not too much up front. I will pout the 400's back in with the 22mm and post my observations.

 

i was using 14/16k front/rear rates with no front bar and 22mm rear bar. i was understeering alot b/c i think the front rates were just too high and it was overworking my tires.

i lowered front rates to 10 and rears to 14, reinstallled the front 24mm swaybar and the car is much more compliant, plus turns in better with less to no understeer.

if you remove the front bar you will have to raise the front sprinerates enough to compensate for the roll and turnin response, then you will need to run impractially high rear rates to cut out the understeer... i would have needed a 20k rear spring.

my poinion now is if you continue to run a front swaybar you have much better options to dial the cars handling in without making it too stiff to be fast. i have a feeling alot of the racers not running the front bars are limited by class rules as far as suspension tuning and springrates, or tire wear is not an issue due to sponsorship or whatever. the tighter the car the more energy is directed straight into the tire traction.

btw, the realtime itrs were running 14/22 with the dc2-r chasis, i just assumed the drivers were so good that they could handle insane oversteer but after experimenting with high rates i found for myself that the car is just less responsive to springrate cahnges the higher they get. 14/20 would have been pretty neutral in my eh2.

 

i had left the front bar off for awhile.. with my upgrade in spring rates, I added a small 93 civic si front bar and will add a larger rear though.. trying to gain the "best of both worlds" if that's possible..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicgsr19 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If anyone is hardcore its travis
</TD></TR></TABLE>


you've got to be hardcore to roll a Tracker with wires!