Would you race without a roll bar or roll cage?

 

No. Besides, a cage is required. Racecar 101 my friend.

 

What John said . . .

 

Define "race".

If you mean it as spending some time driving your car on a roadcourse (which is NOT racing), ... I'd say most people have done this for their first few "events".
If you mean "race" as in door-to-door, fender-to-fender, I can get to and through the next corner before you, then absolutely not !

 

Title says road racing so my asnwer is definitely a no.

 

I do track events with my car. This is NOT racing wheel to wheel, but does obvisouly involve danger. Even worse than having no bar is having a harness with no bar, which is what I do.

 

No offense, but if you know this is really bad, why do you keep doing it? HAve you figured out where your head would be if you rolled? And you were belted in in an upright, non-movable position? Better you have street belts on - at least you'd slide in your seat and not become part of the earth at an early age....

 

There is no regs that govern this. It is more a common sense thing. I was thinking of doing this until I saw a street car roll on the main straight at Summit Point. It was an instructor driving his Talon (yes his car). His student passenger was either spit out of the side window (good thing) or he dragged himself out in a BIG hurry.

The driver was strewn across his own seat and the console with his head sticking out the window with the car crumpled on top. They did land and stay on the roof.

If he had had a harness, he would have been beheaded. The street belts allowed him to be jostled around enough to land in a prone position. His passenger would also be racing in a different plane right now.

So although no one can stop you, I wouldn't go out with you. I don't like red.

We had a kid show up with a racing seat and harness and no roll bar. Although I tried to paint a really gross picture, he and his father did nothing about it for several events. This year may be different and we may not allow this.

Also, be advised that the factory installed "roll bars" seen on Boxsters, S2000s, and Z3s among others, will not be allowed this year in NASA. To begin with, they are lower than the top of your head with a helmet. Although they are supposed to "pop up" when you tip/roll, we are faced with the same safety issues. These cars are convertables and will be treated that way. If people come to the track with a written guarantee from the manufacturer, we can talk. Otherwise, install a roll bar.

BTW - Autopower bars are bolt in. Better than nothing, but have you seen what they look like after a roll? As an SCCA tech inspector I have, and that one will not be in my car either. Personal preference.

Food for thought for all of you


[Modified by Lees Z, 10:58 PM 12/29/2001]

 

i just sold a 4 pt bar and am moving to a 6 pt bar. saftey is number 1!! can not drive fast if you are dead or crippled!

 

Gods, no!! Why on earth would you ask such a question? I've basically stopped even open-tracking my car until I get something in it, or get a car that I will put something in!

Karen

 

I meant at a track event, not wheel to wheel. I figured it would be stupid, but the lure of that Speedtrial deal was pretty strong.

 

I think I'm going to commit my car to the 4 pt. Autopower as soon as my budget allows.

 

There is quite a difference between racing and driver schools. You should never have the mentality of driving 10/10ths in a street car at a driver school. Especially in a car in which takes you from A to B daily. I have seen cars get fuct from drivers who go out on track and try to drive on a razors edge.

In a racing situation a roll bar or cage is required in every sanctioning body in the US. In Europe this might be different due to the fact they race everything that has a gas and brake pedal. My advise is to take a little more time thinking how to make your car safer rather than faster.

Cliff


[Modified by Cliff Huckstable, 12:09 AM 12/30/2001]

 

Bare minimum roll protection is the 4-point. The Autopower can be had from I/O Port Racing for about $350 shipped (not bad), and the install takes just a few hours with a buddy. Be prepared to loose the use of your backseat.

 

Or if someone you know has an incident. Or if you see an incident. Or if you flag corners on a regular basis..... Or if someone you know has an experience they share with a mailing list about a Friday at the Track where they were the last person to talk to someone who went out on track in a street car with no cage that lost its brakes in turn 1...... :shudder:

Karen

 

(to the original poster) I think everyone was being so hard on you because wheel to wheel roadracing can be extremely dangerous, even if you yourself are careful (you never know if they guy behind you is willing to risk his life, and yours, for the pass). The simple fact is, there are very few rollovers during the most heated events, but the low number of fatal rollovers can be attributed to good cage design and a good head on your shoulders (that won't be on your shoulders anymore without a cage).

Track days are a completely different animal. You can drive your car at 50% all day long just to learn the line and the feel of the track. As long as you allow others to pass safely, eveyone's happy. I'd say that's even safer than driving on the street to and from the track with all the idiots out there. You just have to realize that the harder you push your car, the more things are no longer under your control, and accidents happen. It does not even take a bad accident to put a car paint-side-down, just dumb luck. I wouldn't let the lack of a cage keep you from doing a track day, just remember that you can't allow yourself to explore the limit.

 

I have yet to do a track day, and I just bought a four point cage for my CRX(see earlier response, hehe...).. Why did I buy it? because I WILL be doing track events next season, and I like breathing... lol...

Dan

 

I'm new to the board(Hi!), but I've been reading it for a few days. I'm not trying to make this thread off-topic, I just wanted to say that I really like that everyone gives safety a good spot on the priorities list. Oh yeah, I'll be getting a cage too once I start visiting the track...

 

welcome...

 

****! I will not be racing anytime soon, as the R will be my daily driver for at least 2 more years. So it looks like 2 years of HPDEs with a goddamn leased car. A cage is out of the question, which really saddens me.

 

My Camaro is my daily driver. Mr Camaro is my HPDE car. I owned my car 2 months when I went out for my 1st event after 20+years. My kids drive my car at the track (questionable on my part); however, when you realize that an HPDE is NOT wheel-to-wheel, it was NOT designed to be such, then you realize that when you keep that in mind that your car IS a daily driver, you don't drive it like a race car. Because it isn't. It is your daily driver that you are having fun in.

You can drive it to it's ability - which may be less than yours. (Problem) But the object is to learn how to drive to the car's capability, not race. That comes next. With the appropriate equipment. And instruction. Which is different than an HPDE.

HPDE= learn what your STREET car can do so that you are safe on the track and on the street in it. Competition is against yourself and your ability to become a better driver. Not who you are going to beat into the next corner. (However, when doing the speed limit on a straight on the street, and there's a guy on your bumper, and you know there's a really good turn coming up, and you speed up and you loose him - that's when the HPDE advantage comes in handy)

RACE = Wheel-to-wheel competitive *****-to-the walls driving. A place to compare yourself against others. Who's faster in thinking through a situation, who has more ***** and where you plan on using those extra *****. It's thinking about a game plan to win and how you're going to get there.

So roll cages look cool and save lives. As harnesses and drivers seats look cool. I would invest money in a drivers seat before a cage. (maybe). Why - it keeps you from sloshing around against the seat in a corner. How may of you had to reposition yourself in the seat before the next corner? A seat is safer in a street car than a harness. ( and is legal).

Do you NEED one to do a HPDE? Probably not for at least the first year or so. While you are learning the basics and getting comfortable with what you are doing. While you build up a reserve of cash, do some investigating into yourself and YOUR goals, and what you feel safe in.

There are many schools of thought. The most important thing I beleive is to figure out what your goal is and then get the steps together that will get you to your dream.

 

I installed a cage in my Integra about a month after my first Car Guys school. I did this for a number of reasons...

1. I knew I was hooked and would be doing more and more track events
2. I knew I wanted to get better at it
3. Get better = going faster = increased danger in the event of an incident
4. It's mad tizzite y0

This of course carried with it a different problem. I was now daily driving a quasi-race car. It didn't occur to me until recently that having ones head surrounded by large metal posts...in close proximity...while not wearing a helmet wasn't a real good idea. And of course it's heavliy padded, but still.

So I've come around a bit and think that a roll *bar* is what a regular HPDE student should consider if the car is daily driven. Once the car is pulled off the street and becomes a track-only car (more likely than you think), a cage should go in.

Just my opinion.

 

I have never done any track schools without at least a roll bar. If you begin doing these events, you should seriously consider one. It's just like insurance. You don't need it until you need it.

 

I also agree with this. Having just put a 6 point in my friend's Cobra I came to the same conclusion, a cage in a street car is probably more dangerous on the street than one without. Even with padding.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but when I'm doing 120 mph down the straight at VIR, and something goes totally wrong(either I **** up, the car behind me ***** up, or the something breaks on my car), I want more protection than a nice snug seat is going to offer me. Granted, these are not "races", but we are going a LOT faster on the track than we are on the street, hence the raised risks involved. Give me a bar over a seat anyday.

Dan


[Modified by Lt. Dan, 1:12 AM 12/31/2001]