I tried jacking a thread of .RJ unsuccessfully...

Who has a plan for what to do if they notice they have a cut brake line coming up to a corner at 140 MPH? Given enough advance notice (i.e. you tested your brakes before the braking zone), would you e-brake the car sideways? Or backwards? Or go off straight with as much slowing your engine/e-brake can handle? Or steer for the nearest friendly sand pit? I guess it depends on what is on the outside of the corner, or on the inside of the corner too..

Let's say that you're looking at a 60 MPH right turn, 100 feet of gravel followed by tire wall all along the outside of the turn, and on the inside you have bumpy grass and a corner station 100 feet in from the apex. I'm trying to visualize Canada Corner in my head and can't quite do it.

Any thoughts? Anyone had to do some really creative slowing? How fast does gravel stop you? Is it a guaranteed flip if you hit it fast and sideways?

I think the answer to this question depends a lot on the scenery of the corner.. some cases you can go off straight at 100 and be 'ok', sometimes you're staring at a tire wall or barrels, or forest.

-Chris

(Sorry, too cold to drive here, so I spend time at work thinking about driving. )

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">pray</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Put your head between your legs and kiss your *** good bye.

 

If you can manage to keep your adrenaline in check it might be possible to do some braking with the handbrake without locking up or sliding the car much. What's that about stress, you lose 50% of your training in a life or death situation?

I'd also rather nose in than slide sideways into a wall as everything in the car is better able to protect you in a frontal impact. I don't think I said anything that wasn't obvious in this post.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TeamSlowdotOrg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you can manage to keep your adrenaline in check it might be possible to do some braking with the handbrake without locking up or sliding the car much. What's that about stress, you lose 50% of your training in a life or death situation?

I'd also rather nose in than slide sideways into a wall as everything in the car is better able to protect you in a frontal impact. I don't think I said anything that wasn't obvious in this post.
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Yeah, I overthink these things sometimes... occasionally it comes in handy!

Yeah, I would definitely grab the e-brake... Come to think of it, I wouldn't downshift because my hand would still be on the e-brake with the thumb on the release button. I dunno, I guess I'd toss the car sideways if I thought 4 locked tires would get me to stop in time. If not.... Eat gravel, probably straight. I don't trust myself to put the car sideways (in a straight line) with the e-brake and then put it straight again so I can go into the gravel straight. So I guess it'd be all or nothing.

-Chris

 

Depending on what track I'm driving, my plan for a disaster like this is to take my feet off of all the pedals (keeping the car in whatever gear I'm in, hopefully 4th and not 5th) and drive the car into the side wall as gradually as I can. Dragging the entire side of your car along a wall while steering INTO the wall is a quick way to scrub speed and there is no impact. We don't have walls around here that have the little ramp at the bottom (like highway concrete dividers) but those would be something to avoid. Without that wall to slow me down, I'm pointing the car in whatever direction gives me the longest to run in a straight line no matter where that is. Once you're going slower than 80 you can really take off the speed by steering (in any direction). If I'm touching the e-brake at all, it's very carefully. Once you're sideways you might as well just follow James' advice above.

If all else fails, drive in the tightest circle you can and hope you hit something at an angle.

 

Downshift and slow the car down as much as possible. Drive straight into the gravel pit and let it stop the car. It will.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Depending on what track I'm driving, my plan for a disaster like this is to take my feet off of all the pedals (keeping the car in whatever gear I'm in, hopefully 4th and not 5th) and drive the car into the side wall as gradually as I can. Dragging the entire side of your car along a wall while steering INTO the wall is a quick way to scrub speed and there is no impact.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never would have thought of that, especially at the time of brake failure!

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Depending on what track I'm driving, my plan for a disaster like this is to take my feet off of all the pedals (keeping the car in whatever gear I'm in, hopefully 4th and not 5th) and drive the car into the side wall as gradually as I can.</TD></TR></TABLE>



This really depends on the track...heavily.

The sequence of events you've described scares me a little because it sounded like the original poster had a T1-after-a-straight-Warren-**** kind of scenario.

If that's true, then there's a gravel pit between you and the wall, and if you know you're going off turning your car could cause the two leading wheels to grab and dig, causing the car to start violently flipping.

Gravel traps at the end of a long straight could probably catch a car moving pretty quickly, and we've certainly seen enough of that at both T1 and T10 at Summit Point. We've also seem enough violent flips in T1, T10 and T3 at Summit Point to know that trying to turn the car when it won't turn could be a recipe for disaster.

I dunno...show me the track and the turn, and maybe I'll have an intelligent answer.

At Summit Point, if I had no brakes at the end of the straight, I'd probably end up on the skid pad, just like several famous drivers have. It's not all that hard to aim at the hole in the wall, is it?

It is only the limousine drivers who're taught how to spin the car so the tail hits a wall?

 

I had the brakes come apart on me once at Thunderhill. We were running clockwise and it was at the hardest braking point, for turn 15.

It happened so suddenly I didn't have enough time to think about fancy handbraking or anything like that, and in a racing situation it's not likely you ever will. I just tried to scrub off a little speed going into the corner and pick a vector that took me off track safely. As the brakes were still sorta there, I tried to make the most of the time spent on asphalt.

I don't know how likely it is for a brake system to completely go from 100 to zero in one straightaway - if the pedal went to the floor I'd probably just try to pump it as much as I could when still on the pavement and hope for the best once in the dirt.

 

yea, i have only had brake fade so far.. but I have been on corner and seen stuff on cars break, and a good friend of mine had his brake pedal break off.. From what i have seen and heard.. its really too late once you find out something is wrong.

The best thing to do when something like that happens is probably make sure you have all the good safety equipment.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This really depends on the track...heavily.

The sequence of events you've described scares me a little because it sounded like the original poster had a T1-after-a-straight-Warren-**** kind of scenario.
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Hopefully no one read that as the best/only alternative! Just another option to consider. Hehehe...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It is only the limousine drivers who're taught how to spin the car so the tail hits a wall?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I practiced that for a couple years in high-school. E-brake turns, e-brake 180 parking, snowy/wet/dry didn't matter. I was a nuisance, but at least I got good at it. I miss that '84 Prelude.... so undramatic and predictable... *sniff*

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know how likely it is for a brake system to completely go from 100 to zero in one straightaway - if the pedal went to the floor I'd probably just try to pump it as much as I could when still on the pavement and hope for the best once in the dirt.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I agree, unless a caliper came off and took a brake line, or debris slashed a line, something real catastrophic. I would definitley be pumping the brake pedal.

The only answer I've heard in a driving school is brake with whatever you have, and go off straight. The reason I'm asking is because you can't always go off straight (although there often is an out somewhere, as long as you've found it BEFORE losing the brakes..)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ccfries &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... Given enough advance notice (i.e. you tested your brakes before the braking zone), would you e-brake the car sideways? ....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Interesting question but it proceeds from an almost impossibly unlikely proposition - that you would have even that much warning. How many of you routinely step on the brake to test it before you "need" it? Right. None.

That said, we almost never brake as late as the car is actually capable of. There was a great story in one of Carroll Smith's books where he described a conversation with a "famous" racer who came back to the paddock and bitched Smith out because "the brakes faded and scared the hell out of me..."

Smith asked him if he crashed. "No." The response? "Then you weren't braking late enough, were you?"

Anyone besides me watch Jimmy Johnson go straight into the foam blocks at the Glen, in a Busch race there a few years back? If the scenario described above does happen at really high speeds, we are pretty much along for the ride.

If the car doesn't have any rotational moment already established, there's no physics that will allow you to "spin it in." If it does, you might be trading a straight-in impact that puts crushable structure between you and the stationary object ahead for a side or offset impact that is fundamentally more dangerous. (You'll also be wanting an Isaac about then, if you don't already have one.)

The great message here however is the importance of mentally modeling your "way out" when the doo-doo gets deep. Your plan might not work but I imagine that it makes one feel like he's in charge of his fate, and it beats just puckering your butt and taking it.

Think about ways to decrease the chance that you'll get hurt if (when) the impact does happen. I used to drill grabbing the shoulder harness straps when I co-drove in the rally car, because I didn't want my arms flailing out the window or something. Watch how many people put their hands on the roof when they roll: That doesn't seem like such a good idea.

Don't lock your arms out in front of you on the wheel. In fact, it might be a good idea to let go of it so you don't get pranged by the kickback. Back that thinking up even more and think about having your helmet visor down and latched when you leave the pits: Rapid deceleration will pop it open in an impact. (Look at crash pictures and you'll be amazed how often this happens.)

K

 

At some point, get your feet off the pedals/off the floorboard, get your hands back and preferably folded over your chest, keep your mouth shut (no talking to yourself, no Carowinds ride "yeeehawwwws"). I agree with Kirk's closing of the visor leaving the pits - you won't have time to do so when you do come to the conclusion you are about to hit something. I think I am a victim of most of these and uhmm, you do get some good reminders if you aren't careful

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting question but it proceeds from an almost impossibly unlikely proposition - that you would have even that much warning. How many of you routinely step on the brake to test it before you "need" it? Right. None.
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Damnit, I knew I was the only sucker that did this. I just HPDE though, I'd never do it if I was competing. I got too much power for my own good though, and stock sized rotors. Name the pad, I'll cook it, and boil that fresh Motul while I'm at it.

Thanks everyone for the good advise, that includes:

- Already knowing what pseudo-straight paths you can take off the end of a turn, before you get there
- Pump brakes, there may be something there.
- Use the gravel, that's what it's there for, but in a STRAIGHT LINE
- If you have a choice of hitting a parallel wall or a perpendicular wall, head for the parallel wall to slow down (caveat emptor)
- Pray, kiss rectum.
- Brace for impact by crossing arms, holding shoulder straps to keep arms in car.
- Yell out "Yee haw!" as long as you finish with your mouth closed before impact.
- Probably a bad time to become a hero d0rif+0 king.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the car doesn't have any rotational moment already established, there's no physics that will allow you to "spin it in." If it does, you might be trading a straight-in impact that puts crushable structure between you and the stationary object ahead for a side or offset impact that is fundamentally more dangerous.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was a self-taught stunt car driver in high school... I can spin while travelling in approximately a straight line (single lane of a 2-lane highway). Yeah, I have to steer to get it to start, and this really seems like a stupid thing to do because you'd lose control for a long period of time. Might be worth a try in a video game where the reset button is a few feet away. Not so much fun at 100+ mph.

-Chris

 

I have thought about this a good deal.

doing all of these simultaneously, and very quickly:

Right foot: pump brakes a few times, and hold. All modern cars have 2 braking circuits, so if one line fails, you (should) still have some pressure going to opposite corners.
Right hand: pull ebrake up a few clicks and leave it there, then immediately start downshifting. downshifting is your #1 way to slow down here. row through the gears pretty quickly, most of the slowing force of the engine is going to be done in the high rpm range.
Left hand: steer where you want to go, keep your eyes up and look for escape routes. Often times cutting into a very early apex will buy you more pavement and thus more time to slow down.
aim for a tirewall, sand trap, or anything relatively soft. think about where your crumple zones are on the car and use them if needed, although a glancing blow is always best.
personally I would not slide the car sideways. unpredictable and very bad things can happen then

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting question but it proceeds from an almost impossibly unlikely proposition - that you would have even that much warning. How many of you routinely step on the brake to test it before you "need" it? Right. None.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, you know at my first school I needed a big stab of the brakes to get from 100 down to 70 or so.. broke hard/late and nothing happened. I went off dead straight because I didn't even have time to consider any other alternatives. My brake pads consisted of ash, and my brake fluid was not so happy either. I had LOTS of warning and ignored it. 6 years ago, still making payments on the caR and I had tire wall from front to back! Wife loved that, let me tell you what.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Right hand: pull ebrake up a few clicks and leave it there</TD></TR></TABLE>

With that quick shot of adrenaline I'd probably get it more than a few clicks .. Hopefully you'd have the presence of mind if you're going off fast into some grass to let off the e-brake a bit to keep the car pointed forward.

I didn't know that about the 2 circuits--- So yeah, unless your brake pedal falls off there's going to be something there most of the time.

The early apex part is also a good idea... I do this even when my brakes are working, if I've really done something stupid...

-Chris

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This really depends on the track...heavily.
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No doubt, and that's why I specifically mentioned "depending what track." The two fastest "turn 1's" we have here in Arizona are turn 1 at PIR following half the nASScar oval and the front straight, and turn 1 at Firebird main following the whole length of the drag strip as the front straight. In locations like these, there is no trap or tire barrier, just wall (or run-off, fortunately)

Below is turn 1 at PIR. The photographer is standing (behind a wall) near the apex, and behind my car is the blue wall just out the passenger door before turn-in (when you realize there's no brakes). This turn has plenty of track out so there's no reason to hit the wall, but since we're talking about hypothetical situations I wanted to point this out as an option when there is no trap or tire barrier:



Below is a representation of the walls at Firebird, either metal or concrete (I don't have a picture of turn 1 since it's a long walk ). Again, there is a lot of run-off room here so there's no need to go into the wall, but that's a specific option for THIS track.



My suggestion is good only for those tracks (as above) where the concrete barrier is adjacent to the track surface. This is what we have at our fastest turn 1's in AZ. I don't suggest you turn toward the wall if you have anything between you and the wall other than track surface.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't suggest you turn toward the wall if you have anything between you and the wall other than track surface.
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I understand, now. Thanks for explaining. I'm not experienced enough to be thinking that way, I guess. Only track I've driven like that is Lowes.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Depending on what track I'm driving, my plan for a disaster like this is to take my feet off of all the pedals (keeping the car in whatever gear I'm in, hopefully 4th and not 5th) and drive the car into the side wall as gradually as I can. Dragging the entire side of your car along a wall while steering INTO the wall is a quick way to scrub speed and there is no impact. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I went to a BMW International driving school at the Nurburgring and we actually got to practice doing exactly that in retired project cars (e46's). Loud as sh*t but it worked great. The key (at the school) was to steer away from the wall just before you came to a complete stop or else the car was in essence welded to the armco. Fun stuff.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fidracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I went to a BMW International driving school at the Nurburgring and we actually got to practice doing exactly that in retired project cars (e46's). Loud as sh*t but it worked great. The key (at the school) was to steer away from the wall just before you came to a complete stop or else the car was in essence welded to the armco. Fun stuff.

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Mmmmooohh how come I don't have stories like this?!!?!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ccfries &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

With that quick shot of adrenaline I'd probably get it more than a few clicks .. Hopefully you'd have the presence of mind if you're going off fast into some grass to let off the e-brake a bit to keep the car pointed forward. </TD></TR></TABLE>
well your top priority should be downshifting, thats where most of your slowing force is coming from. If you are in a fwd, the ebrake on the rear should balance the slowing engine drag on the fronts so conceptually it wouldnt be tailhappy.
Even if you dont grab the ebrake, its no big deal, best to focus on the engine braking. (Ever try to stop your car with the ebrake? might as well stick out a foot)

 

Once I was racing an Audi TT on the Freeway after I let off he blew by me to save some face with his passenger. A mile later I was exiting and noticed he was up at the intersection turning right so I decided to quickly catch up to humiliate him again. I was doing about 80mph coming up to the red light and waiting 'til the last second to brake. As I screamed up the off ramp and pressed the brake pedal the car seemed to hesitate briefly as my foot went to the floor. As it always happens there was the false feeling of the car accelerating slightly as I braced for decelleration.

I started pumping the brakes quickly while down shifting. I got a little brake effect each time I pumped the pedal but not significantly. The down shifting, while not enough to stop me, slowed me enough to make the turn. It was a little tense though as there was an obstructed view of the traffic coming from the left. Luckily for me, at 1 am in the morning traffic was light and I didn't have to avoid anyone as I flew around the corner at about 40-45 mph.

I've raced both cars (SCCA, NASA) and motorcycles (AMA) in my lifetime and had my share of incidents. Most of the time in a race situation things seem to happen in slow motion, probably a result of adrenaline in the system. In this case things seemed to happen very quickly. Still I was amazed at how many thoughts passed through my mind as I sorted the situation. I was fully prepared to use the curb to slow the vehicle if needed or use the sidewalk to avoid another car. I briefly thought about throwing the car sideways too but decided a glancing blow would be far better idea than sliding broad side into a car. Sliding the car would mean a total lack of directional control. It was probably lucky I was very familiar with the intersection.

brian g

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by brian g &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Once I was racing an Audi TT on the Freeway after I let off he blew by me to save some face with his passenger. A mile later I was exiting and noticed he was up at the intersection turning right so I decided to quickly catch up to humiliate him again. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you are an idiot.
get the **** out, and stop street racing

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you are an idiot.
get the **** out, and stop street racing
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no don't it's good for you go faster, much faster and then even faster still, just do it on an empty road in pitch black conditions where medical aid will take hours to reach you.

If you watch alot of RR videos like I do you will notice some drivers double tap there brakes during long straights, not enough to slow them but enough to build line pressure or to check that it's holding