Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning
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From: BoilingSprings, PA, United States
Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning
Search disclaimer: I tried to search on this but I could find no info and the search function is busted.
Car: 01 ITR, used for autocross, 67k miles on original shocks
I am going to put a set of Koni yellows on my ITR over the winter. My question is, should I de-gas Konis or not? Some say de-gas and double adjustable all around with SPSS valving. (The DS national champ has this setup)
I have heard de-gas, DA the rears ONLY and SPSS valving the whole way around. I know the off the shelf Konis are good.
I had an Evolution instructor tell me the ITR does not need de-gassed Konis.
I drove a friends ITR with off the shelf Konis them and his car felt MUCH more stable. So...what's the concensus on de-gassing? Need for DA? Please provide some rationality or theory with your answers. Keep it simple though. I am in sales, not engineering.
Dave
Car: 01 ITR, used for autocross, 67k miles on original shocks
I am going to put a set of Koni yellows on my ITR over the winter. My question is, should I de-gas Konis or not? Some say de-gas and double adjustable all around with SPSS valving. (The DS national champ has this setup)
I have heard de-gas, DA the rears ONLY and SPSS valving the whole way around. I know the off the shelf Konis are good.
I had an Evolution instructor tell me the ITR does not need de-gassed Konis.
I drove a friends ITR with off the shelf Konis them and his car felt MUCH more stable. So...what's the concensus on de-gassing? Need for DA? Please provide some rationality or theory with your answers. Keep it simple though. I am in sales, not engineering.
Dave
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From: MA
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (carl_aka_carlos)
degassing is not necessary. the shock for your car is a low pressure twin-tube design. this means that the gas pressure isn't high enough to affect ride height. typically though, when they are revalved they are also degassed.
i'd suggest making one change at a time. put the OTS koni's on your car and drive it like that for a year or so. learn what changes you need to make with regards to rebound to get the car to do what you want. from there, decide what you need for valving.
nate
i'd suggest making one change at a time. put the OTS koni's on your car and drive it like that for a year or so. learn what changes you need to make with regards to rebound to get the car to do what you want. from there, decide what you need for valving.
nate
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From: Union, KY, USA
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (innocenti)
Depends on how serious you are. OTS Koni Sports will make a big difference. AS Nate said, de-gassing alone will be of little to no value for you unless you are having the shock already be opened for revalving.
Revalving to SPSS3 will make a big change in overall control if you are serious about it but it will also risk compromising the street ride quality as well. Conversion to DA is for the truly hardcore as there are gains to be had (especially on an undersprung stock class car) but the typical "laws of diminsihing returns" occurs and you won't get double the rate of performance return for double the investment. Again it depends on how serious you are about it- local or national level competition. For a stock class car, if youa re going to DA one end only then generally it should probably be the front to help support the weaker springs but I would not suggest revalved, DAs front and OTS singles rear as you likely won't be able to make the car rotate.
If you have only driven on the stock dampers, the OTS units will make a nice, tunable improvement and it doesn't matter if you have custom work now or years from now if it ever ijn your future.
Revalving to SPSS3 will make a big change in overall control if you are serious about it but it will also risk compromising the street ride quality as well. Conversion to DA is for the truly hardcore as there are gains to be had (especially on an undersprung stock class car) but the typical "laws of diminsihing returns" occurs and you won't get double the rate of performance return for double the investment. Again it depends on how serious you are about it- local or national level competition. For a stock class car, if youa re going to DA one end only then generally it should probably be the front to help support the weaker springs but I would not suggest revalved, DAs front and OTS singles rear as you likely won't be able to make the car rotate.
If you have only driven on the stock dampers, the OTS units will make a nice, tunable improvement and it doesn't matter if you have custom work now or years from now if it ever ijn your future.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: BoilingSprings, PA, United States
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (CRX Lee)
Lee,
What is the difference in the SPSS1 and SPSS3 valving? Can you explain?
Can someone recommend a good book on suspensions?
Dave
What is the difference in the SPSS1 and SPSS3 valving? Can you explain?
Can someone recommend a good book on suspensions?
Dave
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (innocenti)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by innocenti »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can someone recommend a good book on suspensions?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...books
https://honda-tech.com/zero...89567
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...books
</TD></TR></TABLE>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...books
https://honda-tech.com/zero...89567
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...books
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Union, KY, USA
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (innocenti)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by innocenti »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lee,
What is the difference in the SPSS1 and SPSS3 valving? Can you explain?</TD></TR></TABLE>
SPSS1 is the valving that we developed for the Honda and related cars when I first started with Koni in 1996. I was racing an ITA CRX at the time and wanted something trick. So I went back through our archives and found the SPSS valving that was used in the late '80s and early '90s back in the Escort and Firehawk series by folks like TC Kline, American Honda, etc. The SPSS designation simply comes from combining SPort with Showroom Stock which was the extension of the category that these cars ran in. We took that valving and updated it to better deal with the higher spring rates being run then as opposed to the stock springs run in the original series, altered the parts for external adjustability, and normally added more compression damping to work with the stickier tires being run. It was a double adjustable version of this same valving that was used in the official "trunk kit" suspension of the SCCA's SSC Honda Civic Sis, etc. Of course back then we called it just SPSS, just like in World War 1 they didn't call it World War 1 because they didn't know World War 2 had yet to come.
Several years later when we started travelling more with the KONI Service trailer doing on-site revalves, we found that it took quite a few new parts to make the SPSS1 valving but we could accomplish very similar forces by actually combining and altering some of the parts already existing in some of the CRX/Civic/Integra units moving some front to rear in different combinations in a way that ultimately required fewer totally new parts as the SPSS1. Thus cheaper, quicker and less stock on the trailer for basically the same result. Then we started calling that SPSS2 and it was what we normally did on the Koni Service Trailer.
Not much later, I started working with guys with Preludes who were running extremely high spring rates and although the SPSS1 as much better than the OTS Sport, it was felt that they needed more yet. A friend named Ed Sawyer who ran with a group called COM was the guinea pig. Basically we decided to expand upon what the SPSS1 had for low speed but increase the mid and high speed damping to deal with the bigger rates and push the range about as far as the 42mm shock would go. Thus the SPSS3 was born. Originally used on the occaisional Prelude, we started using them more and more on Integras and Civics as people started running high and higher rates.
The difference between SPSS1 and SPSS3 is not particularly drastic, more that the former developed into the later as cars and springs got more aggressive. It is the rebound that changes and the compression is pretty standardized only with the note that we will often select bump damping on the conservative side if the car is to be driven on the street much so you don't have to live with too much ride harshness if you don't want to. The adjustment range on rebound is wide enough that there is very little chance of being really overdamped on a softer sprung car when at the lower end of the adjustment range. So now as things have developed and people are getting more aggressive with their suspension set-ups, we are commonly using the SPSS3 on about any aggressively run Prelude, Integra, Civic or CRX that is expected to see much over stock springs.
That is the story. Not a huge difference but more a developmental difference as people's set-ups and especially the openness to use more aggressive spring rates developed.
What is the difference in the SPSS1 and SPSS3 valving? Can you explain?</TD></TR></TABLE>
SPSS1 is the valving that we developed for the Honda and related cars when I first started with Koni in 1996. I was racing an ITA CRX at the time and wanted something trick. So I went back through our archives and found the SPSS valving that was used in the late '80s and early '90s back in the Escort and Firehawk series by folks like TC Kline, American Honda, etc. The SPSS designation simply comes from combining SPort with Showroom Stock which was the extension of the category that these cars ran in. We took that valving and updated it to better deal with the higher spring rates being run then as opposed to the stock springs run in the original series, altered the parts for external adjustability, and normally added more compression damping to work with the stickier tires being run. It was a double adjustable version of this same valving that was used in the official "trunk kit" suspension of the SCCA's SSC Honda Civic Sis, etc. Of course back then we called it just SPSS, just like in World War 1 they didn't call it World War 1 because they didn't know World War 2 had yet to come.
Several years later when we started travelling more with the KONI Service trailer doing on-site revalves, we found that it took quite a few new parts to make the SPSS1 valving but we could accomplish very similar forces by actually combining and altering some of the parts already existing in some of the CRX/Civic/Integra units moving some front to rear in different combinations in a way that ultimately required fewer totally new parts as the SPSS1. Thus cheaper, quicker and less stock on the trailer for basically the same result. Then we started calling that SPSS2 and it was what we normally did on the Koni Service Trailer.
Not much later, I started working with guys with Preludes who were running extremely high spring rates and although the SPSS1 as much better than the OTS Sport, it was felt that they needed more yet. A friend named Ed Sawyer who ran with a group called COM was the guinea pig. Basically we decided to expand upon what the SPSS1 had for low speed but increase the mid and high speed damping to deal with the bigger rates and push the range about as far as the 42mm shock would go. Thus the SPSS3 was born. Originally used on the occaisional Prelude, we started using them more and more on Integras and Civics as people started running high and higher rates.
The difference between SPSS1 and SPSS3 is not particularly drastic, more that the former developed into the later as cars and springs got more aggressive. It is the rebound that changes and the compression is pretty standardized only with the note that we will often select bump damping on the conservative side if the car is to be driven on the street much so you don't have to live with too much ride harshness if you don't want to. The adjustment range on rebound is wide enough that there is very little chance of being really overdamped on a softer sprung car when at the lower end of the adjustment range. So now as things have developed and people are getting more aggressive with their suspension set-ups, we are commonly using the SPSS3 on about any aggressively run Prelude, Integra, Civic or CRX that is expected to see much over stock springs.
That is the story. Not a huge difference but more a developmental difference as people's set-ups and especially the openness to use more aggressive spring rates developed.
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From: MA
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (CRX Lee)
i'm curious now. lee, what, if any, designation does the valving on my front shocks carry? i'll have to get the printout to be sure, but i remember something like 14457 listed next to the new valving. this is the valving that starts with the valve out of the OTS rear sport shock, in case you needed something to jog your memory.
nate
nate
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Union, KY, USA
Re: Koni Valving/suspension black magic mojo tuning (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm curious now. lee, what, if any, designation does the valving on my front shocks carry?
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yours was originally the SPSS1 but at nationals I am sure that we bumped it up to SPSS3. That is about all that we are doing these days unless there is a cognitive decision to go lighter due to stock springs or something...which you certainly don't have.
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yours was originally the SPSS1 but at nationals I am sure that we bumped it up to SPSS3. That is about all that we are doing these days unless there is a cognitive decision to go lighter due to stock springs or something...which you certainly don't have.
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