Friend of mine built up a GSR engine over the summer. Below is a rundown of the modifications done with the engine, and a picture of the dyno chart. He is rather upset for the amout of work done, w/ race gas, and hours on the dyno he was unable to reach the 200WHP mark, his personal goal. Expectations where for much higher. For all that is done, and seeing and reading through out this forum, it should have been an easy mark to hit. Below look at what he has done, and if you have any suggestions, comments, etc. please reply.

Engine specifications:
- Port & polished head w/ valve job
- Skunk2 intake manifold port matched
- Hondata gasket also port matched to the head
- AEM ITR CAI
- 70mm t/b
- AEM fuel rail
- AEM FPR
- RC 310cc injectors
- Venom fuel pump
- Comp Cams stage 2 (278 intake 302exhaust)
- Comp Cams springs and retainers
- AEM cam gears
- OEM headgasket
- DC Sports 4 to 1 header, to catless, to N1 exhaust
- CTR pistons
- spot peened OE rods
- blueprinted, balanced as an assembly w/ clutch
- GReddy Emanage
- Chipped P28 ECU (Mugen style program - 9500 rev limiter)

- Engine has over 2,000 miles with a compression check yeilding ~265PSI in all 4 cylinders. That's a lot higher than anticipated. It could be too high. Does anyone know what ratio that could be?

All dyno runs done with 100 octane VP racing fuels. No pump gas was mixed in. Dyno graph shows the car having a rather linear air/fuel ratio, but quite leaned out by the tuner. I believe the peak power output was 195HP, with 138 FT/LBS after close to 30 WOT dyno runs. Initial low end torque seems rather high, and the VTEC crossover spike as seen in other all motor dyno graphs is near nonexistant. Power from the cams falls off at 7500 when the specifications given by the manufacturer state they are good for a much higher range. (closer to 8500+)

Thoughts of the cams being off a tooth, and/or ignition timing is pulled way back to prevent detenation are ideas why the car isn't making good power. It could be "too high" of compression to make good power unless timing is way retarded, hence the low end torque. The tuner and dyno operator suggests that the owner remove the EManage and opt for a Hondata system. (He has more experience tuning a Hondata setup)

The owner is under the impression the cams are the reason to blame. Looking at their specs versus other reputable cam manufacturers and there isn't really a difference. The bumpsticks are rather close in design.

We've reached a boiling point. We need your assistance. Please help with suggestions, comments, etc. Thank you for your time.

Below is the dyno chart:

 

the A/F looks good to about 4k but then i would probably suggest adding a little more fuel. what do your plugs look like? it sounds like you have done quite a few pulls with it so i am assuming that you started with a richer map and just took fuel away as you went to get to 195??? i hope you get some more replies. good luck

 

I different header will get you over the 200 mark, but im sure there is a cheaper solution

 

that tune is too lean. add some fuel and it should exceed 200whp. g/l.

 

i'd say a better header/exhaust combo would help out. Don't know much about the cams but they could be holding you back.

As for the ecu, did you guys do any tuning? You talked about ignition timing being pulled back, you don't know if it was or not? I guess that's something you should figure out, because yeah it can cause a loss of power. And your fuel curves are gonna change as a result if it was pulled back. If you're running 100 octane I don't see why timing would need to be pulled way back. Try using 104 and increase the timing. 104 should give you enough safety factor to run plenty of timing.

Obviously check the cam gears and make sure everything is lined up.

Hopes were a lot higher? 200 isn't an easy goal to reach, especially on a 1.8 bottom end which I assume this is. I don't know why people think it is. IMO that TB might be too big, I don't always think bigger is better there and 70mm seems a lot for 1.8L.

s

 

IMHO...forget 200 whp.

200 is just a number...i was shooting for 200.ended with 197 and 130.

138 wtq is very good for a stock bottom 1.8 gsr. be happy with what u got.

but ditch that dc. get a QUALITY header...with hondata and richen the air/fuel you'll get your "number"

 

Who's engine is this Aaron? Who built it? Talk to Corey with Slowmo for tuning, i'm sure he could do a little bit of work on the tuning and try to push you over 200

 

Hey fellas! The motor that hes talking about is in my civic!
To answer a few questions and maybe ask some more?

Yeah i know the header is junk, not a real big fan of dc sports. The plan is to get a bisimoto when i gather enough flow!
As for the motor, it was bored out to fit the oversized ctr pistons. So yeah it might be around a 1.8 still.
The car was tunned twice with the p72. Once with 94octane (186hp137ftlbs) and 100 octane (196hp139ftlbs with cams falling on there face at 7800rpms and ingtion retarded alot)
As for the p28 chiiped ecu. The tunner said he was not able get anything out of it ( the p28 is a newly chipped ecu and i lost power)
Question i have is. Why are my cams droping power at 7800rpms? Ive talked to the guy that designed them, hes says they should pull hard up 8800.

 

i don't understand why the ignition timing is retarded a lot running 100 octane.

i would try getting a better header and exhaust setup and see if that helps your higher rpm breathing. It might not be the cams falling on there face. It could be something in the rest of the setup. If the motor can't get enough air you're gonna have problems. I would check out things that effect air flow in and out.

s

 

Was there dyno runs attempted with a richer fuel mixture? Personally I think it needs at least more fuel, most likely a lot more fuel and some additional timing. I've never seen a A/F graph from a highly tuned motor on here go 14.7 ish all the way across. Personally I tend to shoot for more like 13.5 ish on N/A under heavy throttle

 

You have a lot of mods that are unecissary or don't support the rest of the engine package.

- AEM ITR CAI - How did you get this to fit on a B18C1 in a civic?

- 70mm t/b - Way to big.

- AEM fuel rail - not needed

- Venom fuel pump - Not needed

- DC Sports 4 to 1 header, to catless, to N1 exhaust

Exhaust is too small, is this the JDM 4-1?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
- AEM ITR CAI - How did you get this to fit on a B18C1 in a civic?

- AEM fuel rail - not needed

- Venom fuel pump - Not needed

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Skunk2 mani fits quite nicely with the ITR CAI. The upgraded fuel pump is not a bad thing to have and the AEM rail is not hurting power production.

 

ah missed the S2 mani.

The pump/rail don't hurt anything, but they tend to be tell tail signs of legobuilding.
I know people making close to 300whp FI with the stock fuel pump, just bigger injectors.

 

the cams are not making any power above 7800 because the motor is not breathing properly above that, run a different header of course, and run it open exhaust, might be loud, but you will definatly gain some top end from that, also advance your timing alittle bit, with the 100 octane it will be fine. all motor is way differnet from forced induction so you could probably advance the timing alot more and still be safe.This is just to get him to the 200 mark, my buddy has just about the same setup in his hatch, but he is running som skunk2 stage2 cams(suck), open exhaust,68mm throttle body, with the timing at 24 total degrees, he made 202hp and 136 tq.So i don't see why your buddy couldnt make the same numbers or more.

 

everbody is talking about shitty header, this and that, but, has anybody other than h22coupe and i looked at that a/f ratio? isn't that the the first problem? some people need to wake up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16C1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">everbody is talking about shitty header, this and that, but, has anybody other than h22coupe and i looked at that a/f ratio? isn't that the the first problem? some people need to wake up.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i did... and at WOT my a/f is not 14s:1, but i didnt know if that was working for this guy or what. i say bring some timing back, richen up the map at WOT and at least get it in the 13's:1 range and put his cam gears to use.

 

14.5 is pretty lean.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16C1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">everbody is talking about sh_tty header, this and that, but, has anybody other than h22coupe and i looked at that a/f ratio? isn't that the the first problem? some people need to wake up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The A/F ratio does look a bit lean (although a good tuner will tune for power, not a specific A/F ratio, as long as he feels the ratio is safe. Whether or not the tuner was gaining power as he leaned it out, I don't know). Everyone is mentioning the header because it is definitely holding-back the motor. With a good header (e.g., SMSP), a 2.5" exhaust, and a bit more time on the dyno, he'd easily put down over 200 whp.

 

Just had my car dynoed. Unhooking my exhaust made like a 15hp diff. and like 10fp of torque. I agree with the header situation 2.

 

change your cams to jun 3's or skunk2 stage 2 and a DC moded Dtr fab header will give you to around 210 @wheels.I know cus my cousin has a similar set-up those cams you have is not really that good.

 

that a/f is too lean. your having the same problems im having with my motor, which is having to pull too much timing to be worth a dam on the street.

get some C12 and then you dont have to worry about detonation. if the head or block is milled small changes in cam gears will yield large gains. run more ignition advance and richen it up a little. ive noticed on 94 theres definate loss of power compared to 13.5:1 a/f, but on leaded fuel, the difference is not as substancial.

just like everyone else said, even a JDM DC 4-1 should give u the extra hp u need to get past 200whp

good luck

 

Thanks fellas for all the opinons! Will keep you'al informed of the changes!

 

more fuel, if your head was ported incorrectly you will lose flow, run open head for your dyno pull because your exhaust is ******* up your vtec scavenging.

Then you should be pulling way over 200whp

 

Get that thing tuned. "Plug n play" chips are crap. Get a good header, and exhaust. I'd suggest hytech, and thermal. And a set of Skunk stage 2 cams should work a little better.

 

I would add a some more fuel like mentioned and then maybe sell those stage 2 cams and get some more aggressive cams.