The all motor section has tons of posts about VTEC vs. Non-VTEC, arguments about it, arguments about how best to build one motor or another. Temper tantrums, etc.

It might be interesting just to hear the experiences of those who have run the Non-VTEC B's in their road race cars: the classes you run, engine choice, build level, parts preferences and overall impressions of your experiences.

Thanks for playing.

Thawley

 

Thawley,

Some people use engines such as the B18C without using the vtec option. I think they (those who use vtec killer cams etc..) should comment on the reliability and the power output of those built engines.

Thanks.


Great Topic Thawley!

 

hi.

i ran a B18A/B motor in my road race car from 2000 until about 2 months ago. my car is a 95 Civic hatch, and i started with a 94 B18B LS swap. bone stock LS swap out of a junkyard. i daily drove it and on weekends raced it in ST-1 with EMRA, and taught with the PCA, Ferrari, BMW, Mazda, Lotus clubs. lots and lots of track miles and many street miles (only car; drove it to work everyday!).

car was really nice to drive; good torque, great gas mileage. stone cold reliable.

in early 2002 i bought another junkyard motor and had it totally redone. B18A motor; built to the rules for H1; 12:1 comp, balanced internals, totally ported head, dual springs, retainers, hi perf Web cams, computer, headers, etc etc etc. b16a tranny. ran the thing from 2002 til just recently. very good torque; dynoed 180 whp. very reliable, but you had to be sure that you didn't exceed the 8k rpm limit for longevity purposes.

i loved the LS motor; what i didn't love was going down the straightaway at Summit point and VIR and having the big bad VTEC cars steam past at 9000 rpm.

i rectified that now; got me a K20A2 swap in there; totally stock it pulls noticably stronger than the LS.

have fun with your LS buildup; they are a great motor; just be careful with the revs.

 

I see where you're going and it is certainly relevant. I guess my interest in the B18a/b lies in its vast availability and affordability. The VTEC system itself has proven durable and worthy. But the B18C blocks and heads are pricey and more rare. I'm more interested in what guys are doing with the cheap and common stuff.

Thawley "Mr. Cheap & Common"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dynoed 180 whp. very reliable, but you had to be sure that you didn't exceed the 8k rpm limit for longevity purposes.

have fun with your LS buildup; they are a great motor; just be careful with the revs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you find that the Built LS wanted to go past 8000rpm? Was it breathing well past that level?

Thawley

 

No road racing experiance, but I do have track experiance with several nonvtec combinations for what its worth? (little to nothing probably).

I started doing HPDE's with an almost stock B18B, bolt ons, etc, I put down about 128whp on a dynojet.

Car wasn't exceptionally fast, but I was not falling too far behind on the straights compaired to the modified GSR's.

I switched to a B16 tranny and crower 404s, and made roughly 165whp/135lbsft. The gearing/torque difference was a huge improvement. Driving a friends ITR, I easily got frusterated coming out of turns as I had to wait for the speed to pick up instead of stepping on it and going.

Spun a bearing on that motor, and picked up a 9.6:1 JDM B20B.

I am making about 10whp less (stock cams) than my B18B with the 404s, but the huge increase in torque more than makes up for it. The only direct compairison I have again is my friends ITR (which is making 20 more HP up top) doesn't gain any ground on the straights and I can get much faster exit speeds in my car.

As far as competition, with the right cams I don't see not having vtec as much of a disadvantage. From what I read, the trouble would lie in the fact that with the modifications really needed to get good power out of the nonvtec engines you are put with guys that can easily drop a vtec head on the B18B/B20 block and have the best of both worlds.

I don't know how much cheaper it would be to try and build a B20 with 405's, than simply drop on an ITR head.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I started doing HPDE's with an almost stock B18B, bolt ons, etc, I put down about 128whp on a dynojet.

Car wasn't exceptionally fast, but I was not falling too far behind on the straights compaired to the modified GSR's.

I switched to a B16 tranny and crower 404s, and made roughly 165whp/135lbsft. The gearing/torque difference was a huge improvement. Driving a friends ITR, I easily got frusterated coming out of turns as I had to wait for the speed to pick up instead of stepping on it and going.

Spun a bearing on that motor, and picked up a 9.6:1 JDM B20B.

I am making about 10whp less (stock cams) than my B18B with the 404s, but the huge increase in torque more than makes up for it. The only direct compairison I have again is my friends ITR (which is making 20 more HP up top) doesn't gain any ground on the straights and I can get much faster exit speeds in my car.

As far as competition, with the right cams I don't see not having vtec as much of a disadvantage. From what I read, the trouble would lie in the fact that with the modifications really needed to get good power out of the nonvtec engines you are put with guys that can easily drop a vtec head on the B18B/B20 block and have the best of both worlds.

I don't know how much cheaper it would be to try and build a B20 with 405's, than simply drop on an ITR head.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's great info, Ross. Do you remember where peak hp and torque were rpm-wise?

Thawley

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Did you find that the Built LS wanted to go past 8000rpm? Was it breathing well past that level?

Thawley</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes. pulling strong at my shiftpoint, which was 7800. it wanted to go past 8k; i didn't want to let it!!!!

todd

 

Here is My 404 setup vs my B20





As you can see the peak HP isn't as much, but the torque difference is pretty noticable.

Here is my 404 setup vs an ITR with I/H and tuning.



Again, down 10whp or so, but much more power in the RPM band.

 

Thanks for sharing. This is exactly the kind of stuff i was looking for: dyno AND track performance info. Good stuff.

Thawley

 

i too have never W2W'd my car. but did do HPDE with it. it was a super fun car to track the only thing that killed me was the gearing, great tranny to learn the track with you can go around thunder hill in 3rd and not shift and still do just fine. but the tranny is lacking.

since i too am working towards racing H1 HC, i got a new motor that will be simi competitive, if i can drive worth a ****, in stock forum. reliability is number 1 for me

 

My 2 cents is that the advantage of the vtec heads is their higher flow rates, not vtec itself.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My 2 cents is that the advantage of the vtec heads is their higher flow rates, not vtec itself. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Most definitely. But if you can get similar power for less money out of a non-vtec head then its something to consider no?

For example, if you look at my dyno vs the ITR. Two hatches running H1, one has the ITR motor one has the B18B + 404s, acceleration wise they should be comparable yet the nonvtec is a fraction of the cost.

I believe that is the idea being explored here.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Most definitely. But if you can get similar power for less money out of a non-vtec head then its something to consider no?

For example, if you look at my dyno vs the ITR. Two hatches running H1, one has the ITR motor one has the B18B + 404s, acceleration wise they should be comparable yet the nonvtec is a fraction of the cost.

I believe that is the idea being explored here.</TD></TR></TABLE>

the problem is; now consider that the other guy running the H1 ITR powered hatch decides to do the following:

- ctr pistons
- proffesional porting job
- complete Toda top end with springs, retainers, cams
- tunable ecu system

now you get the chance to see him put about 20 car lengths on your LS powered car every time you hit a long straight. that can really take your heart.....

so you decide to REALLY tune up your "cheaper" LS motor. you put in some very radical cams and valvegear. you put in CTR pistons. and tune it to make really good power up to 9k.

and it runs incredibly strong;


for about 1-1/2 hours. then, while leading your race, you are going down the front straightaway, and suddenly your engine's rods decide to depart from the crankcase at an extremely high rate of speed. during this departure, your expensive headwork and valvetrain, pistons and bottom end are destroyed. not only do you lose the race, but your motor is a smoking memory.

thats why i gave up on the built LS. it was super reliable, but i didn't have it built to make the kind of power that the front runners were making. if i had, it would have broken.

the vtec motors make more power, and can make it reliably. unfortunately, the price of admission for a vtec motor is alot higher than the LS. i originally bought the LS because it was so reasonable. but i finally realized that it was unlikely that i was ever going to win a race with the LS power under the hood....

good luck, and i hope you figure a way out to prove me wrong! i'd be happy to be beaten up by an LS powered H1 car.

todd

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the vtec motors make more power, and can make it reliably. unfortunately, the price of admission for a vtec motor is alot higher than the LS. i originally bought the LS because it was so reasonable. but i finally realized that it was unlikely that i was ever going to win a race with the LS power under the hood....

good luck, and i hope you figure a way out to prove me wrong! i'd be happy to be beaten up by an LS powered H1 car.

todd</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think anyone is trying to prove you wrong. The LS DOES have a weaker bottom end than the VTEC motors, so it seems like chasing your tail to try and match the power of a VTEC with an LS. But some of us just want to go have fun at a reasonable cost with something more than an ITA/H4 D-series car. I want to get out there and start to learn about race craft, driving and car set-up.

It's a pity that there isn't a limited prep hybrid rule for LS powered cars to go in H2 or H3. Hell, nobody runs those classes anyway. Why not just let the K-series guys battle with the killer-Bs in H1 and let the rest of us have some fun with LS motors from the junk yard? I'm not complaining. Rules are rules, and H1 is where I'm going to be. It would be interesting, though, to see what growth might occur with an LS formula in H2 or H3. Just thinking out loud...

Thawley

 

I'd take a B16 over an LS in a race situation anyday.

and the swaps are about the same price.

I built my track kaa with a fresh B16 and have logged over 8000 miles without touching a thing , thats 9000 rpm for 20-40 mins straight on a bone stock internal engine.

as for speed/power output , I have yet to come across any LS powered car that wasent thrown into my rear view instantly.

for the money the B16 should be the choice hands down.

oh , and I'm running 5 seconds off the H1 pole on street tires , btw.

added plot , 100% stock , bolt ons ONLY.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Doctor CorteZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd take a B16 over an LS in a race situation anyday. and the swaps are about the same price.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A valuable opinion, to be sure, but pretty well off topic since we're taking about B18a/b and B20s in this thread...

Thawley

PS: Showing a dyno plot without the numbers to support the graph is not a very productive addition to any thread.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


PS: Showing a dyno plot without the numbers to support the graph is not a very productive addition to any thread.</TD></TR></TABLE>

PS: I dont care about peak numbers.

I showed you what matters , the area under the curve.

oh well.

 

I agree with Dr. Cortez.
I've driven a B20 EG on the street and it was awesome. If I ever get around to doing a swap in my street car I'll go with a stock B20 for sure. The low to mid range power so usable. It's just perfect for daily driving.
I remember when Sam Higashi(Endless9) first got his EG. It came with a pretty stock LS in it. We took it to Willow to shake it down and almost killed the poor thing. It felt like a broken Honda. There just wasn't anything up on top where you needed it. I revd it up trying to find power somewhere and it just cooked itself.
A few months later I picked up my B16A2 swap (XSi clip) for $1400. It was way faster on the track than Sam's car. No power on the bottom end but it didn't matter. It was perfectly happy up at race track RPMs. That's where that motor is designed to run. If you want to get a good motor that you can run hard for a couple seasons with minimal up keep I'd go with a B16 in a heartbeat.

But none of that matters now. I've been playing with a 370HP boosted DC2 all week and will never be happy again. Stay away from boost kids. Even one harmless experimental hit could change you forever.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyHope &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Stay away from boost kids. Even one harmless experimental hit could change you forever. </TD></TR></TABLE>

So true....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyHope &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Stay away from boost kids. Even one harmless experimental hit could change you forever. </TD></TR></TABLE>

so true.

bOOst is better

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AndyHope &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stay away from boost kids. Even one harmless experimental hit could change you forever. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Big power is like crack...easy to get hooked. I drove a friend's track prepped torque-bitch Viper GTS at Mid Ohio for a day. I'm still in rehab.

 

Hey Andy,

I love you and all, plus I think you're a stud for doing all that you did with the B16 last year, but you guys are missing the point of this thread. Its not about comparing VTEC to Non-VTEC; its about NON-VTEC.

The junk yards are full of them. They don't have to be imported. The don't have gearboxes with parts that were never sold in the US. They're North American market motors that were built in astronomical quantities. Probably over a million if I took the time to research it.

I get the whole, high rev, high horse power VTEC thing, I really do. I just want to hear from the Non-VTEC guys who typically (and wisely) keep to themselves because Non-VTEC threads always get off track like this. Okay?


Thawley

 

Fair enough. Sorry about that John.
I would check the IT forums. My understanding is that the 94 & up B18B powered Integras are moving to ITA next year. I'd expect a lot of people to have data on how it performs on track very soon. The few people that run them in H4 seem to do really well.

 

I run a totally stock b18b and I like it a lot on track. That's all i have to say. A non vtec motor with a vtec tranny will do great for cheap, imo.