I was concerned that this setup would be too stiff, but it doesn't seem to be the scary oversteer monster many have made it out to be. If anything, it is more neutral now...

At what point should I be looking at upgrading swaybars vs adding spring rate to shocks?

At last resort, the staggered tire idea comes into play but I don't really want to go in that direction yet.....

 

It's not just the springs in this equaision. You also have to consider alignment, rake, tires, and surface, for example.

Before going with more spring I would be sure to check out the rest of the setup on the car.

 

Yep, alignment can make a huge difference to handling... also what sort of sway bar setup are you currently running? Stock size rear or have you upgraded to something in the 22mm range?

 

You should try some sway bar changes. Specifically remove the front bar and see if you prefer the increase in rotation.

 

on my ITA crx I run 450f/650r with no front sway, stock rear sway, it is neutral +1 in corners. a slight bit of oversteer, but just enough to get through the corner quickly, nothing scary. Very controllable

 

ST rear sway will solve your problems.

perhaps try a little less rear camber also.

 

swaybars and spring rates alone won't make your car loose. my car has backwards spring rates, a big front swaybar, etc. basically anything that will, if we listen to conventional wisdom, make it understeer. it's REALLY loose. a typical comment from spectators/course workers after an autocross is "damn! your car looked like the rear tires were on coasters!"

don't disconnect the front swaybar. maybe add a larger then stock bar, but don't disconnect/remove it.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not just the springs in this equaision. You also have to consider alignment, rake, tires, and surface, for example.

Before going with more spring I would be sure to check out the rest of the setup on the car. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Yeah, I'm on stock swaybars front and rear (91 Si) and the alignment goes a little something like -2.5deg camber front, -1.5deg camber rear, 1/8 toe out in front and 0 toe out in rear. ride height is in the 4.5" to jacking points at all 4 corners range.

Tires = hoosier 225/45/15 all around... although I've been researching 245/50/15's for more ultimate grip.....

I'm just wondering at what point the spring rates aren't so beneficial (1000lb+ springs?) and I should be looking at upgrading swaybars instead...

Or should I have done the swaybars first and then gone to spring rates to fine tune it? (This seems more "streetable," but counter-intuitive... and I've heard it referred to as a band-aid approach to induce oversteer) I'm also hesitant to remove or disconnect the front swaybar. I understand the effect, but won't turn-in suffer as well, and I feel this might hurt my slalom speed.....

 

I have a ef just like you, and I'm running 400f/450r with suspension technique rear sway bar, and a HF bar up front. I'm not really sure what alignment setting I'm running because I haven't adjusted toe or anything of that matter yet. I haven't adjusted it yet because its fast now as it stands. I don't want to go screwing the car up after I just figured out how to drive it anyway. A close friend of mine runs 500f/600r in a Ef as well and I really can't tell a difference, but maybe because I new to the game. Both cars are daily drivers also.

 

what shocks do you have.

get a front bar

 

Put Ryan Thompson in it for a couple of runs and get his feedback.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, I'm on stock swaybars front and rear

big snip...

Or should I have done the swaybars first and then gone to spring rates to fine tune it? (This seems more "streetable," but counter-intuitive... and I've heard it referred to as a band-aid approach to induce oversteer) I'm also hesitant to remove or disconnect the front swaybar. I understand the effect, but won't turn-in suffer as well, and I feel this might hurt my slalom speed..... </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd suggest looking into upgrading your rear bar so that the rear soll rate will be increased. This should help the car rotate a little better.

I'd also suggest listening to Nate and not removing your front bar. I think that no front bar makes sense for RR but for autoX it isn't worth the loss in turn-in, IMO.

FWIW, I feel like my car is fairly loose with my current setup, 500F 400R 22mm bar front and 23mm bar rear.

As far as tires, I'd sugget getting some 13x8's or 13x9's... again, just my suggestion as I'm running 13x9's with 235/45's and am very happy with their performance thus far.

Christian

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Put Ryan Thompson in it for a couple of runs and get his feedback.</TD></TR></TABLE>

KenE, im curious why you didn't ask joo neighbor Ryan about it already!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris N &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

KenE, im curious why you didn't ask joo neighbor Ryan about it already!!</TD></TR></TABLE>


.....been there, done that.

But his EF is so different than my own that until he has a bit of seat time in my hatch, it's anybody's guess beyond the obvious.

I'm trying to get a good baseline setting before the next event, though. Hence this thread.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B HATCH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what shocks do you have.

get a front bar</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why do you suggest a *bigger* front bar? I already have the stock front swaybar on there.....

The coilovers are apexi n1, and I'm very happy with the dampers. I can play with the settings as well and it seems that stiffer settings in the rear make it break loose easier.

I was hoping others had done similar setups on their EF's with good results, and I could maybe mimick some of the settings/ suggestions.

Thanks for the feedback guys, it was about time for my monthly "basic suspension setup" question.

I can't run a smaller wheel than 15" due to the size of my brakes, and would like to try some 15x10's very much. The 13x9 advantage in width and gearing would be nice, but oh well..... The final drive and swap in the car seem to give it enough to break traction in 2nd, so my biggest concern is cornering...

I don't like the removing swaybars idea, and would like to keep the cornering as flat as possible... perhaps bigger swaybars front and rear and playing with tire pressures and sizes would benefit me...

I was hoping this would turn into an exercise which would benefit us all and it has. Keep 'em coming guys.

 

just curious. what 245/45/15 tire model are you going to use? i only ask because slicks aren't usually measured by metric values and hoosiers DOT tires only go up to 225. does hoosier make a 23-10-15 slick?

well, just went to hoosiers website. they don't list a 23-10-15 (widest is a 9.5 cantilever), but they DO list a 22-10-16. their ya go d00d! some custom made te-37's in 16x10 and you are off to the races. stop this fooling around with DOT tires on a DM car.

btw, 500lb front springs is too soft with a stock front swaybar. there is a larger front bar (2nd gen tegs?) that works nicely, conversely, up your springrates. the STX EF i helped throw together for nats ended up with 800lb front springs because the owner wanted to keep the stock front bar. personally i'd like to use both bars and springs, but in this case with the low grip levels of street tires we could get away with it.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just curious. what 245/45/15 tire model are you going to use? i only ask because slicks aren't usually measured by metric values and hoosiers DOT tires only go up to 225. does hoosier make a 23-10-15 slick?

well, just went to hoosiers website. they don't list a 23-10-15 (widest is a 9.5 cantilever), but they DO list a 22-10-16. their ya go d00d! some custom made te-37's in 16x10 and you are off to the races. stop this fooling around with DOT tires on a DM car.

btw, 500lb front springs is too soft with a stock front swaybar. there is a larger front bar (2nd gen tegs?) that works nicely, conversely, up your springrates. the STX EF i helped throw together for nats ended up with 800lb front springs because the owner wanted to keep the stock front bar. personally i'd like to use both bars and springs, but in this case with the low grip levels of street tires we could get away with it.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>


.....I was looking at hoosier r3so4's for 245/50/15. They are road race compound though, and might not be suitable for the colder weather autox's.

I'm still trying to figure out what cantilever slicks would be best for me. I would take a 23x10x15 or 24x10x15 perhaps..... Oh well, I'm off to look at Avon's website... If you know of any good links, please direct me to them.

I prefer to say with 15" wheels for weight savings, etc...

800lb front springs on your friend's car? nice. What rear bar and what size rear springs were you using?

I'd like to use a 22-23mm rear bar, and I don't know what front bar would be suitable. I don't want to sacrifice turn-in.....

 

yeah, i was just looking further at the website and sure enough they do list a 245/50/15. i haven't seen anyone running those yet, but i'd be a little concerned about the rolling diameter, not to mention that its only available in the roadrace compound. that tire would be 24.4" tall compared to the typical 23" tires most everyone else uses. that 1.4" is gonna hurt and the sidewall is a bit tall as well.

you don't have to run a cantilever slick in DM as there is no restriction on wheel size. unfortunately, there isn't much in the way of slicks for a 15" wheel. hoosier does offer a 23.5" tall, 12" wide tire, but the suggested wheel width is 14". there is also a 24" tall, 11" wide tire that uses a 10" wheel. if you're stuck with 15x7 wheels though, a 9.5" wide cantilever will still be better then even the 245 r3so4, by a LOT! the best bet of all would be a 21-22" tall 10" slick on a 13x10 wheel.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was concerned that this setup would be too stiff, but it doesn't seem to be the scary oversteer monster many have made it out to be. If anything, it is more neutral now...

At what point should I be looking at upgrading swaybars vs adding spring rate to shocks?

At last resort, the staggered tire idea comes into play but I don't really want to go in that direction yet..... </TD></TR></TABLE>

The tires are the only thing touching the ground: hence the first priority

It's not really a deficit if you can fit 225's in the front and only 205's in the rear BTW

 

Yeah, that 245-15 Hoosier is pretty pointless. Only car I see it working on really is an SSB Mustang. If you're going to bother with a tall tire on a Honduh you might as well move on up to 16's and get the shorter sidewall the 245-45 allows.