OK, we are just making a point of covering all our options; so what is the best engine choice for autocross? The pros and cons of a k-series:

PRO-
Easy power - 170 whp for built D, 220 whp for warmed over K.
Weight distribution - the K has more weight on the passenger's side and it's rearward in the engine bar.

CON-
Weight - Seems to be 85-95 lbs heavier than the D (and the same as the B)

So, it's the basic question.... should the car weight 1900 lbs with a K motor or 1810 with a built D making 170 whp on 1.8 liters??? It's a tough question in my mind. Cost is not an issue here.... I want to know what would be better. At some point, the power in a FWD car offers diminishing returns, and much above 220 whp I believe is not as usable in autocross on a light FWD car..... just an educated guess.

Thoughts???? Much appreciated. We are putting alot of effort into making this car a real SM championship contender, and your experience and input would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone have experience here autocrossing a high hp fwd car and have a recommendation?

Chris

 

I suppose b00st is out of the question?

 

Think about torque as well with the K series. You won't have to worry about not being at the top of the power band. I would go with the k if money was not an issue. You can make a ton of power with them with the new hondata system. 220 whp is gonna be a very low estimate if tuned right.

 

couple of things to think about maybe you have maybe you haven't thought about these already.

- the K sticks THREW the hood on the 88-91 civic/crx.
- the gearing on the K series 6 speed is awsome.
- the stock reliablity of a fairly stock K series motor.


also i thought that the K series was lighter then the B series? this could be a myth im not sure though

 

I have to call you

 

Good thoughts.

- YEah, the K stick through the hood.

- The K makes a ton of power everywhere. But realistically a built D-series would make good torque with it's 90 mm stroke and overbored to 80mm or so.... giving 1.8L displacement. Of course the K is better power everywhere, but the D isn't a slouch.

- stock reliability with the K motor is a good one too. Already considered that, but the D would last a long time too.

- I've done significant research and listened to the right people, and I'm sure the K motor is within a few lbs of the B. The only exacting numbers I've seen as side by side weights on the same scale show the B at 401 with engine/trans and the K at 406 with engine/trans. The D-series is right around 300 by Hasports scales... that's the basis for assuming the K is 85-95 lbs heavier than the D.

- a D with boost has been considered, but we are gonna fight to get down to 1800.... that's the primary goal; so boost won't allow that.

Still not really sure. The K is tempting, but the D is still ahead in my mind because I'm unsure of the K overall and not sure we could get the car below about 1875 with the K.

Chris

 

I "almost" codrove Neal Tovsen's SM VW Scirocco at the Oscoda Pro this year. Ended up driving Cashmore's MR2 instead.

Anyway, that being said, 220whp in a FWD is NOT TOO MUCH! It needs and can handle more. For reference, Neal's car is ~2000 lbs, and has 235 fwhp, and ~250 lb-ft at the front wheels.(1.9L, twin screw supercharger, 5th place in SM in '03) NO traction control though, although Race logic is now doing systems for FWDs that lift a rear wheel.

Given, first gear is pretty useless and ProSolo will NOT be it's fortay, it actually does sorta hookup in 2nd. That was with 235/50/13 Hoosier S03s.

With traction control, and maybe longer gearing, I think you can start pushing closer to 300 whp before it really gets silly.

If the cars going to have a K series and be 1910 lbs, do a supercharged D series instead. better powerband, etc.

 

Chris, a bunch of the Honda-Challenge guys have been aspirating their stock K rods in race conditions. I haven't had the impression the K's are the most reliable in stock form. The F20C spins the same way (and it's got a great rod:stroke ratio ), might be worth trying.

I really think it's going to take something "outside the box" to keep up with Vic. Whatever it is, it HAS to be 1800lbs. to stand a chance.

A warmed-over CBR1000 bike motor could get to 180whp with a nice wide powerband, and weighs <100lbs. with tranny; you just need some wacky gearing to make it work. Add about 100lbs. of lead "seat mounts" under each front seat floorboard to get back up to 1800, and you should have the best-handling SM car there is.


Or you could go the heavy way and swap in the rear subframe from an AWD wagon and send most of the torque out back. Might take some frankensteining CRV and S200 bits but finally the power from a built-up B, K, or F would be useful!

 

[QUOTE=jzr]Chris, a bunch of the Honda-Challenge guys have been aspirating their stock K rods in race conditions. I haven't had the impression the K's are the most reliable in stock form. The F20C spins the same way (and it's got a great rod:stroke ratio ), might be worth trying.[QUOTE]

i think that most of these motor's all had raised the rev limiter up there and had a mis-shift. many people stand behind the K in saying that if you keep it in close to stock forum with a near stock rev limit, its got honda reliability, and great power is still made.

 

hello.

i race #11 in H1. used to be B powered; now its K powered (2002 rsx-s motor; k20a2).

i wanted good power (equal to a built up B series) with reliability. lots of the guys here on the east coast are making big power with their b's; but lots of them are lasting less than 2 hours on track, too. lots of catastrophic failures.

that wasn't for me!

so i did lots of research, and decided on a K series. its stock, except for headers (custom made northend service headers!), a filter on a stick, and the hondata computer. my shift point is 7800 to 8000. revlimiter set to 8200, but i rarely go there if possible.

so far, motor has been rock solid reliable (3 race weekends on it so far).

and STRONG. this thing will pull with most of the totally built up B guys; and it seems that the power is everywhere, even out of vtec its got lots of pull. just a swell of power that keeps getting bigger and bigger....

o, and it has yet to be dyno tuned; i tuned it up on rt 273 late at night; basically just trying to make sure that the a/f wasn't too lean. i'm sure that there is more power with a good tune.

the 6 speeder tranny is nice; takes some getting used to (and i made a custom electronic reverse lockout setup for it). gears are nice and close; i still have the stock 4.20 gear in it; would be awesome with a 4.9 or 5.0, so that i could use 6th gear...

i think for autox, it would be great. if you kept it stock, it would make around 200 whp for ever; the d series would probably require lots of looking after, etc.

i think the key to the reliablility on these motors (K) is to keep the revs in check. remember, in H1, we are required to stay with all oem stock bottom end. no rods, pistons, etc from aftermarket. thats why i am staying with a lower shift point. also, i will not put any aftermarket cam in it. maybe down the road, i will swap in a K20A JDM R camset, but not an aftermarket camset; too much temptation to rev. too much chance for "kabloooooom, tink, clank, clank".

good luck with your project!

todd

ps i didn't find the swap to be "easy". on a 1 to 5 (1= easy, 5 = very hard) scale, if a b series swap is a 1, the k series was a 4.5. was worth it for me, though!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris, a bunch of the Honda-Challenge guys have been aspirating their stock K rods in race conditions. I haven't had the impression the K's are the most reliable in stock form</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was going to bring this point up as well. When the K's first came out and everyone was getting RIDICULOUS gains from bolt-on's and mild cams. Heck Hondata was making like 220whp with a JDM R-spec K20A with just a good intake, Race header 2.5" exhaust and some TODA A's and basic reflash. Everyone was excited. Then once people started actually using them in racing apps I've stepped back a little to see how things progress. I mean the D-Series and B-Series and even H-Series are pretty tried and true as people have 10+ years in R&D'ing these. Me personally I've gone back to my roots now and will wait until the K-Series has a lot more R&D'ing under it's belt. People still have exploited the limits of it in the Drag scene yet so there isn't really a "best" set-up or "multiple" choices just yet, not to mention I'd like to see how the reliability pans out in RR.

It will be the wave of the future. Just needs some more time.

I also think with a fully built D-Series as in 1.8L, full bored, stroked, high compression (over 12:1), Huge cam (Crower 3 and above), Ported head etc... I also think you would be able to get more then 180whp. Talk to the guys at Exospeed as they've exploited the D-Series to the highest degree. They know what works and what doesn't. Not quite sure what your limitations are, but sounds like not much.

Whichever way you decide good luck.

 

180whp or even 200whp isn't enough IMO. I'd love to see it, but those M3's are pushing 300+whp and lots-o-torque in a 2600-2700lb car. You can bet that next year they're going to be even faster.

edit: I was told this year at Nationals that a FWD can't win SM...we can and we will!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">edit: I was told this year at Nationals that a FWD can't win SM...we can and we will!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. After driving Rodney's car in Topeka this year, I think his car with the right setup for concrete, some really good driving, and just a bit of engine work could keep up with the M3's. Looks like its going to be quite a battle for fastest FWD next year!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jzr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris, a bunch of the Honda-Challenge guys have been aspirating their stock K rods in race conditions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

See I dunno about this. I mean I don't doubt that the HC guys (or more possibly, one or two guys) are blowing stuff up. But I just watched the Grand Am enduro at VIR. Winning ST car was an RSX-S. Grand Am requires a stock bottom end. No ventilated blocks, no torn up rods. Three hour enduro

Chris in the grand scheme of things I have to think a boosted B-block would be the ticket. It fits in the car. It's well documented how its done and how to make good power without grenading the thing. Parts options are basically endless.

If I were gonna perform such a task that's what I'd do. Take with multiple grains of salt, as I am by no means a hybrid guy. I have a hard enough time keeping a DC2 GS-R in driveaxles.

 

Rodney's car is heavy, and I think that really hurts it. The 1800 lb weight thing is absolutely critical, which is why forced induction and the K motor are hard to swallow.... I don't think a K motor car can be 1800 lbs and a forced induction car has to be 1900 lbs. I think that's not the right direction... but then again I know there is lots of power to be had to offset the 100 lbs. It's a tough decision.
Chris

 

I'm really against the B-Series actually... the motor sits so far out over the front wheels and it's heavy. It's bad. And a turbo one is gonna be way way way way way way way too peaky. Not a chance that a turbo b-series is the way to go..... And I wouldn't think the K would be good if it were as far forward as the B, but it sits toward the rear of the engine bay, above the front axles.... so weight distribution is better, as is the polar moment (car's willlingness to turn). But it's still HEAVY!

No, definitely not a B-Series turbo though.

Chris

 

Chris, there is still power to be found in the d-series motors, IMO. Do you ever peak around on d-series.org? Larry from Endyn made this quote a couple years back, regarding the d-series honda motors -"So don't chunk those 1.6 SOHC engines, they can make really good power. For a pure performance application, regardless of application, I'd choose the SOHC. No bull!!"

Have you considered the f22 single cam motors from the accords? I am not so sure about the weight of them, but I know some pretty crazy power has been made with them, NA. The only problem with that motor is parts availability.

 

As much of a sweet motor swap fanboy as I am, I still think you should go with a D. You can always add more power to the D if you need to. A twinscrew or something similar would only add 45 lbs or so and you'd still be ahead of the game vs. the K-series. And I doubt you'd end up needing the extra power, especially with as much midrange as that 1.8 D motor is likely to be capable of. Minimum weight, in a Honda that isn't suspended with lengths of rebar! Imagine that.


Modified by TeamSlowdotOrg at 7:45 AM 10/5/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I "almost" codrove Neal Tovsen's SM VW Scirocco at the Oscoda Pro this year. Ended up driving Cashmore's MR2 instead.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Guess it's a small world. He is back in MN now, I just saw that car at an event last Sunday. Two Sundays ago, IIRC, they were spraying water on the radiator between runs to get the temps down.



It was the second fastest car with doors behind a BP Corvette last weekend, and had FTD two weekends ago.

 

Since I'm of KISS (keep it simple stupid) mindset, I'd go with a D series. All bolt in, known recipes, zero fabrication, etc., etc. Sort of the logic I was applying to my thread last week about how to re-birth my Prepared car as a SM'er.

A successful SM Honda has to take advantage of the 1800lb minimum weight, combined with being as least nose-heavy as possible. The EG cars in SM done to date all are way heavy, and also have that limo-like 101"+ wheelbase. Short and nimble is a good thing, which is why I like the 3rd gen chassis over the EF. 95.9" wheelbase and 151" length. Incrementally littler. It still is the Honda chassis of choice in CSP and EP, particularly in shorter wheelbase CRX form.

An advantage to the K series though, might be that forgotten element but entirely necessary in autox environment: TORQUE. Never driven a K20, but have a K24 in a 6 speed TSX. Pulled like a tractor. Been seeing lots of stupid high rpms getting thrown around in these threads though. Personal opinion for is if you've got a motor that's making its horsepower peak above 8 grand, its got nothing in the basement to pull out of a turn in the bottom of second. But since the built D would be a 1.8, that could be "built" in by stroke and cam. If it were my motor, I'd look to have a torque peak around 4500, and a hp peak not more than 7500. Those points should be attainable with 180hp, the minimum I think necessary to take on Vic in an 1800lb Honda.

 

It seems like we are going to take seperate paths with the same goal in mind. I agree that TORQUE is the key. I plan on having 200-250 lb-ft at 3000 rpm and be able to rev to 7500-8000 with a nice flat torque curve, whp is less important in my mind but there will be plenty. Getting the power to the ground is going to be the trick

 

With all the talk of using the K motor in the 1988 hatch...I was wondering what mounts are you going to use in the first place? I have yet to see a k-motor mount kit out there for the 88-91 Civics that are available to the public. Unless youre going to make custom mounts like these guys did..



But of course you say cost is not an issue so I guess the mounts are covered...but The D seems to be way less of a hassle and easier to keep up with.

 

I'm gonna vote for D-series, since lighter weight seems more important than extra power in autocross...I mean that's really the biggest reason why the 89Si does so well in STS among heavier cars that have a better power-weight ratio.

Whatever you go with, I'm excited to see this project happen.

 

Just out of curiosity and I know this is out of left field, but what about a built s/c d-series?

I mean something like 11:1 compression, nice high-lift cam with relatively low duration, maybe low 270ish, p&p head and a roots type eaton blower (reworked Jackson perhaps) spinning in the upper teens boost wise along with a inter cooler sandwiched between the intake manifold and blower to keep temps down. This would put the weight oposite that of a turbo and instant throttle responce and the smoothest power band and flatest tq curve one could hope for. Of course if nitrous or dual power adders were allowed you could always spray a very small shot (15-20) to help cool intake charges further or look into water injection. Something like this would probably be costly, but when you consider the cost comparison of a built K-Series swap maybe not?

I don't know just something I've always thought about doing seems like it might be a viable option and still be in the 1900lb area if FI and have a much better power to weight then the N/A D 1800lbs. Who knows?

 

[QUOTE=Mr Milano]Just out of curiosity and I know this is out of left field, but what about a built s/c d-series?

I mean something like 11:1 compression, nice high-lift cam with relatively low duration, maybe low 270ish, p&p head and a roots type eaton blower (reworked Jackson perhaps) spinning in the upper teens boost wise QUOTE]

i'm no expert on forced induction, but high compression + high boost sounds like a blueprint for lots of holes melted in your pistons.....

to do that, i think you'd need 116 fuel plus alky-water injection + a standalone (with a good knock detector and timing retard/boost retard scheme!) + a tuning wizard by your side at all times???

it only takes a second or two of serious detonation in a forced induction car to wreck the motor....