Thinking of something useful to do with the 3rd gen Civic that moves about once a year and takes up 1/2 my garage, and is perpetually for sale. Also trying to brainstorm what to do for a fun ride once my current 7th gen Celica ends up past it's prime in GS. 'Course, I don't know how I'd find the time to do this , but......

SM at the moment is dominated by various iterations of E36 M3's, with our own Rodney (hi Chris!) trying to be pesky with his Hype R powered EG. I think that car is Shweet, but lately I've been thinking about finding a 3rd gen 1300 base hatchcrap tub and transferring all the guts and goodies from the prepared car into it. Oh, and to be realistic, include a full Electromotive on the motor, and 13x8's or 9's with 225/45-13's. It would end up right at the 1800lb minimum weight, with an estimated 150-160hp, with an 8 grand limiter.

The earlier car has a much shorter wheelbase (6"), would weight I'd estimate about 300lbs less. Looking at times between CSP and SM, which is a bad way to make comparisons, it looks like it would be right there considering the additional power having the cam and higher compression.

The idea of going Goliath slaying seems like fun. Anyone have negative thoughts?

 

that does sound like fun

what type of motor would you be using?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what type of motor would you be using?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think the one out of his current car.

competitive? i don't think so, you're lacking a fair amount of power... locally? yeah. now take the same car, drop in a b (or k-series) motor, build it up, and yes you can be competitive assuming you have the time and money to do it right.

bench racing owns!

 

Motor would be an early D series with the 12 valve single cam head, as used in 85-87 Si's, normally aspirated, with 11:1 pistons, and a cam that moves the hp peak to around 7500rpm. A B series would be a tight fit, and the attraction was having all the ex$pen$ive stuff already. To do it would cost around $5000-6000. Not cheap, but way less than a new car.

Having_just_not_quite enough power is my concern too. The M3's are probably making about 350hp at the wheels, and like 400 at the crank. Dennis Grant's Oh Canada! monster is probably similar. Weight on either I'd guess is 2800lbs or so. This hypothetical Honda would be at 150whp/1800lbs. 8 lbs/hp to 12lbs/hp. Yikes! But how much could be made up in braking, transisions and turns? Rodney's car is around 10lbs/hp, and he's almost there, with a bigger chassis car. But looking at times, and figuring it would run somewhere between CSP and EP, makes it interesting to think about.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MichaelJComputer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i think the one out of his current car.

competitive? i don't think so, you're lacking a fair amount of power... locally? yeah. now take the same car, drop in a b (or k-series) motor, build it up, and yes you can be competitive assuming you have the time and money to do it right.

bench racing owns!</TD></TR></TABLE>

EP/DP 86 Civic Si

So you would be just swapping chassis basically for the lighter base model, and losing that 300 pounds or so? i am going to have to agree with Michael on this one, I think you are going to need a little more power. A b series would do you nicely and a K, well that would really be something...

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by preparedcivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Motor would be an early D series with the 12 valve single cam head, as used in 85-87 Si's, normally aspirated, with 11:1 pistons, and a cam that moves the hp peak to around 7500rpm. A B series would be a tight fit, and the attraction was having all the ex$pen$ive stuff already. To do it would cost around $5000-6000. Not cheap, but way less than a new car.

Having_just_not_quite enough power is my concern too. The M3's are probably making about 350hp at the wheels, and like 400 at the crank. Dennis Grant's Oh Canada! monster is probably similar. Weight on either I'd guess is 2800lbs or so. This hypothetical Honda would be at 150whp/1800lbs. 8 lbs/hp to 12lbs/hp. Yikes! But how much could be made up in braking, transisions and turns? Rodney's car is around 10lbs/hp, and he's almost there, with a bigger chassis car. But looking at times, and figuring it would run somewhere between CSP and EP, makes it interesting to think about.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You would be at 8 lbs/hp tryin to catch the M3's
Rodney is at 10 lbs/hp and he's almost catchin the M3's
M3's 12 lbs/hp

I think you would need to be a little closer if not on the other side of eigther of these to be "competitive".

just my $0.02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you would need to be a little closer if not on the other side of eigther of these to be "competitive".</TD></TR></TABLE>

You dont need power to be fast on an autox course.

Momentum onwz j00.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You dont need power to be fast on an autox course.

Momentum onwz j00.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is only so far momentum/handling can take you.

 

Vic's M3 is more like 2650lbs/350+hp = 7.5 lbs/hp, and a ton of rubber to put it down.

Isn't the motor in the 85-87Si the EW3, precursor to the D series?

I'd try a built-up CBR bike motor. Cams, pistons, and some ludicrously short gearing should make a nicely accelerating animal. Get a pneumatic shifter too.

Or try a K-series and grafting in some of the AWD Civic stuff, and tune it so 80% of engine output goes to the rear wheels. THAT would be cool.

Good luck man!

 

No, but as the weight goes down, the less relative power you need compared to the M3's.

 

Competitive or not, this car would be drool-worthy for sure... are there other ways you could get it to brake and turn even more better than the M3s?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Isn't the motor in the 85-87Si the EW3, precursor to the D series?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, my bad. There is "D" something nomenclature in the Shop Manual I think. Been a while since I looked.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, but as the weight goes down, the less relative power you need compared to the M3's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what makes this an entertaining idea. Take the littlest Honda out there with a chassis that's a known quantity, and pack with a reasonable amount of power, most of which can be gotten to the ground. Vic's M3, even on 315's can't be at more than 1/2 throttle on most autox courses.

 

Well, look how Grady Wood did in his...

85 Civic Si, mildly built B16 (~170whp). It's still a bit heavy (~1900 IIRC), but has the right wheels and tires, and a basically CSP suspension.

 

The main problem is that a 315/35/18 (or whatever the M3 SM guys are running) is a huge contact patch. Can you overcome the power, rubber patch and chassis (RWD) handicap you have?

And can the front torsien bar/rear beam suspension on the 3G Civic put down the power?

Huge uphill battle IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by preparedcivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yup, my bad. There is "D" something nomenclature in the Shop Manual I think. Been a while since I looked.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 84-86's had EW engines, the 87's had D engines, I believe D15Ax and D13Ax. These are not related to the 88+ D series except by name. They are essentially EW's with a new name.

As for the topic at hand, I think you could give them a run for the money, but your courses are a lot bigger than ours so the comaprison is tough. In Solo 1 I am classed with a 328i and a bunch of Type R's, and when I am on my big tires (13x9's with 235/45-13's) I usually run away from them. Even on old 205/15-15 RA-1's I did very well. Well enough to win the class overall, anyway...

Tom

 

What the SM Civics really need is for Hoosier to come out with some wider tires. Something along the lines of a 245 or 265-13 at or under 22" O.D. Or a 15" at or under 23". A 22" tall, 10-11" wide tire will certainly look helluva funny in a Fred Flinstone kinda way. But that's what's needed, IMO

 

I would love to see Kumho come out with 710's in 265/40 13... but I don't really see it happening as there would only be a very small market for them...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Xian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would love to see Kumho come out with 710's in 265/40 13... but I don't really see it happening as there would only be a very small market for them... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Count me in for a set of those!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rpr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Count me in for a set of those!</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Xian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would love to see Kumho come out with 710's in 265/40 13... but I don't really see it happening as there would only be a very small market for them... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not that small. They would basically steal the whole crowd that runs 225-45-13 Hoosiers. But i think that Hoosier would probably be the first to come out with something like that. Why dont we start campaigning the mfgs for more wideass small diameter 13s and 15s?

 

BTW, BFG used to make the old R1 in 245-50-13. I know a guy who has a brand new seet sitting in his garage. But obviously useless by now...

 

When I posted this I didn't know what kind of response I'd get. Thx. for all the interest.

Using this year's North course, which EP, CSP , and SM all ran in the dry, SM made some serious Whoop *** on CSP, which with the 1/8th mile drag start plus the straight up to the "gap" comes as what-o-surprise. The Hondas I'm using as comparison to the mighty M3 was the Mieritz CRX in CSP and Chris Dorsey's in EP. This car should when developed should theoretically get down to a time between those two, obviously closer to the SP time. That still would be about a half second behind, but the BMW's would have been ahead by about 4 times that on the two power straights.

While bigger is sometimes better, I see potentially diminishing returns going larger than a 225 on an 1800lb car. I wouldn't go larger than a 22" diameter tire either. I've driven the prepared car on 205/50-15's , and it just felt plain wierd and tall.

Of course too, these cars are totally known quantities in EP, and for the $$$ this fantasy/wet dream would take, I could be at the top there too with less bloody knuckles. Some of the work I did on this car is coming back to me......

 

the other thing im looking at is the fact that the winning cars...Tunnel and Sias have guys like "Tunnell" and "Sias" driving them. Not to mention that both those guys are willing to put money into a car to truely prep it. (exception = Sias's lack of rains)

But let's look at Rodney's car. No traction control, still overweight by at least 200 lbs, no super fancy shocks, no superfancy control arms, still theoretically "down on power".

He's top placing FWD 2 years in a row. But I think we can all agree that it's not to the same level of prep that Sias's car is. And definately NO disrespect to Chris, as he's an awesome driver, but these Sias and Tunnell guys have a proven track record on how to WIN, Nationally, over the years.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PseudoRealityX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the other thing im looking at is the fact that the winning cars...Tunnel and Sias have guys like "Tunnell" and "Sias" driving them.

[Big Snip]

but these Sias and Tunnell guys have a proven track record on how to WIN, Nationally, over the years.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No argument there. I've been autocrossing for almost 20 years. Been competing at the Solo II Nationals since 1989. Have a tired-*** drive it to work Celica that ran 1 & 3 on Day 1 in the dry this year. With only built shocks, and alignment. Stock class cars are a lot easier in dollars and work to prep for top of the class running.

I'm just tired of this Honda sitting in the garage for the last 5 years. I either got to do something with it or suck it up and sell it for whatever I can get for it. Anybody want it for $5k? In any case It will get run a bunch more than it has, to help me decide either to keep it or to get it sold.

 

How much money/effort would it require to get the EP chassis back into SM trim?

Maybe work it from the opposite angle - Build the car you have back to a lower class and instead of spending on a new chassis, spend on a new motor.

This is of course assuming that your EP car can be converted back. Tube chassis and cut/relocated suspension pickup points will make this not possible.