I was racing a WRX on a tight, twisty, little 2 lane parkway today and on a couple of corners I felt the rear get light and rotate a little bit. I didn't slam on the breaks like some do I was able to keep it under control but I was wondering what would tighten this up? A rear strut bar? Oh BTW- the WRX driver couldn't drive for **** and I pulled on him a few times

 

what's your suspension setup, tires, tire inflation, swaybar size, spring rates, shocks?

 

WRX's make shitty track cars.
They have nasty understeer... i can keep up through most bendy roads in my stock integra.
Type-r will kill both of us of course

 

Jesse- Suspension=stock...Tires=some shitty *** firestones the deal put on before I got my car. I think this is where My problem lies b.c I waited too long to rotate my tires so now the rears are worn pretty good and the fronts have lots of tread on them...Inflation 37psi fornts and 34 rear(I think)...Stock swaybars...and stock springs and shocks.


[Modified by ReBornGSR, 9:23 PM 12/12/2001]

 

no rear bar? Did you mean no rear aftermarket or no rear at all?

I guess you could try lowering the rear pressures a bit to allow a slightly larger contact patch.

Was the surface damp? It's possible to get some rotation if you're charging hard, and roll off the gas before a turn. This'll load up the front suspension and lighten up the rear. If it's not too much weight transfer to the point where the front tires are working too hard, the rear will rotate around nicely...all this without the help of the brake.

Nice to hear that you were able to recover from it.

Understeer scares me.

 

Sorry it was a typo!! I ment no aftermarket on the bars.

No it wasn't damp totally dry but these tires really suck so today I started my mission to kill them. So I HAVE to get new ones after the winter.

I had to get off the gas for a second in the middle of the turn b.c I was pulling on him and I would have rear ended him. I felt the weight shift and the back get loose but nothing I couldn't handle.(I guess all that practice unloading the rear in a damp parking lot helped out fianlly! Strongly suggested to everyone.)

But what along with new tires will help keep that *** end planted to the ground?
Thanks

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement. AWD vs a GSR with an open diff... not better? Maybe it's the driver? I'd love to drive the WRX on a track.

Rear end is getting loose because it's light and you are probably taking corners a bit hard. Try practicing taking better lines. That may also help. And of course, the proper suspension set up doesn't hurt either.

 

WRX's make shitty track cars.
They have nasty understeer... i can keep up through most bendy roads in my stock integra.
Type-r will kill both of us of course


WTF are you talking about ?

 

Gee3-Have you ever seen Die Hard 3??? The one where they try to steal all the gold. Well if you remember the scen where he is on the Saw Mill Parkway and he pulls the ABS fuse. Well this relates because thats the exact tiny twisty road I was going way too fast on so I couldn't take a better line because I was allready taking the best one I could. Its actually a really nasty road that I shouldn't have been racing on but I did.

So I know I was going too fast but what will help me keep that back end down? You say proper suspension set up well what should be done first to help improve in this area? Thanks again

 

Cool! Yeah, be careful! Sometimes just backing off the gas as you enter the turn and then gassing it on the exit. (in slow, out fast). But I digress...

Like you said, better tires will definitely help out. A larger sway bar will help to keep the *** planted, but that takes some practice too. You can easily bring the rear out with the bigger bar if you're not careful. But I'd definitrly try that first, and get good tires. Along with my sway bar the next best suspension mod I did was a set of better tires. And of course, racing lessons helped a great deal as well. I'll also assume you know that the car they used in die hard was set up for that road along with a really good driver.

After reading that you're car was still stock, a good spring and suspension combo will do a world of difference. It will lower your center of gravity. I use ProKits and koni yellows and I really like them. They lower the car but not slammed. I can go over speed bumps and not woirry about my exhaust! hehe!

So to re-cap: springs, shocks, sway bar would be a good list to start with. Good luck!


[Modified by Gee3, 9:03 PM 12/12/2001]


[Modified by Gee3, 9:06 PM 12/12/2001]

 

They were in that old *** Benz right?? That road is really bad but the only good thing is it has lots of high speed twisties and there is basicly no room for cops to sit on the side. I think I am going to look into a larger sway bar for my next mod. Right now just an Icebox.

 

d00d WTF are u talking about? quit letting your *** talk.

 

A larger rear swaybar increases roll stiffness at the rear of the car, which reduces traction. Less traction means the *** end steps out quicker.

Get some good tires, shocks, and springs, and you'll be amazed at the difference.

 

Im just goona try to get through the winter with these tires and stay out of the fast and hard twisties.

Ride height is an issue for me because I have a steep driveway. What springs would work well without too much of a drop?

 

Eibach Prokit, H&R OE Sport, or any coilovers where you adjust the ride height to close to stock.

 

Three points.

1. Race on the track and drive on the street. You are going to kill someone. Maybe yourself.....

2. Rear swaybar will make the back looser.

3. Stock AWD cars are lame on the track just like FWD cars and most RWD cars. Manufactures make them so that they will push, it is safe that way. Big rear bar on a AWD car and it will be all good. I had a 2000 Audi S4 and stock it sucked on the track. Big rear bar and it would rotate correctly. The big disadvantage is that AWD car tend to weigh more than 2wd cars

 

Thats why your car rotated. Its called Lift off oversteer.....

as demonstrated here: http://hometown.aol.com/integratyper...illowdrift.mpg

 

Ok first this isn't flame bait, but I just wanted to clar things up.

This is a 2 lane road that has no on coming traffic so there is no chance of hitting someone else because I go out of control.

Secondly I know a few ppl that have died b.c they did race on the streets that have bad turns that they tried to take at 100+ speeds. <---This is stupid and that is something that I never do.

Today actually was the first time i pushed my car ina while because i haven't gone against a WRX yet. I really never got about 100 and as soon as I saw traffic I let off and hit the brakes imediately. I had no one in my car b.c I don't race when other people are in my car. I have turned down so many races just b.c I had friends in the car. They make fun of me sometimes and many beleive I actually can't drive well because I never race with them.

I am just trying to say im not the stupid little kid that flys by traffic weaving in and out inches away from innocent people. Yes I know people like this but this isn't me. Street racing is stupid and can't be controled BUT I try my best to only do it in the best possible situations.

You didn't see me say I passed the WRX. I could have but there honestly was very little room to pass and I didn't know what the other driver was thinking. I didn't feel like getting clipped by him because I was in his blind spot. So yea maybe I lost because I didn't pass him? I was just seeing if I could keep up I didn't honestly think I would do as well as I did but once again I was being safe for my own sake.

Sorry for blowing up but I just had to defend my choices in life

 

Thanks Chris...That happend to me the first week I got my car(I was stupid and couldn't handle the power of the teg. lol) while on an exit ramp. Today wasn't that extreme I was at that point where u feel them starting to go but they don't. It just gets your heart going a little.

 

"A larger rear swaybar increases roll stiffness at the rear of the car" I agree with that part.

"which reduces traction." Unless you are really turning hard does it reduce traction that much? If so, why get a larger sway bar and not just stick with stock?

I'm not as well versed in sway bar tech so please enlighten me.

With the larger bar I feel that the car stays flatter and decreases body roll. Thus giving more traction. Whereas with the stock bar, the body rolls much more which makes it more loose in the back. Am I saying this right? I do agree that with the larger bar the back can swing out if pushed too hard. But I guess what I'm asking is, what is the purpose of getting a larger sway bar if it'll swing out? Thanks!

 

Its kinda relative...sort-of.

Stiffer in the rear (than the front) = OVERSTEER
Stiffer in the front (than the rear) = UNDERSTEER

 

cool video

 

Basically a swaybar acts as another spring. It makes it so that each LCA has to exert force on the swaybar and all of the other attatched objects. If you add a thicker bar, it has a similar effect to increasing your spring rate.

Let's just assume a flat road here to not complicate things. You turn to the right. The body rolls to the left like this:



The suspension is relatively soft on that car and it doesn't have any swaybars, so the left-side suspension compresses a LOT. Look at the LCA's. Now imagine that there's a bar connecting them. It's going to be a lot harder for the right-side suspension to extend if it's connected to the left one with all the weight of the car pushing in that direction. At the same time, the left-side suspension is prevented from compressing somewhat since some of the force is being used to keep the right-side LCA closer to the car. Less weight is being pushed onto the outside wheels, so you have less grip at that location.

This is where oversteer/understeer comes into play. If you have a front end that's much more roll-stiff than the rear, your front outside tire won't have enough weight transferred onto it in relation to the rear outside tire. The rear tire, which is pointed straight ahead, has more traction and causes the car to push. Conversely, if your rear end is too roll stiff, the outside front wheel will have more weight transferred onto it than the rear outside wheel, and thus will pull the car in the direction you're steering and the *** end will step out. The stiffer the suspension, the smaller the changes in front-to-rear roll stiffness ratio have to be to alter the behavior of the car.

So that, in a nutshell or two, is how you "loose traction" with a thicker rear bar. As long as you maintain a proper balance between front and rear roll stiffness you'll have a neutral-handling car. In FWD cars with a lot of weight up front, the front suspension has to be a lot stiffer than the rear to maintain a decent amount of balance. That combined with the general predisposition of car makers to tune for understeer to keep inexperienced drivers out of trouble is why you see Civics with 21mm front swaybars and no rears.

 

I disagree. I don't run a front sway bar at all for auto-x's, and this is at the advice of seasoned racers. Search around in the competition forum and you'll see spring rates like 400F/600R, with the largest rear sway bar you can find, and either no, or a small bar up front. I don't check this forum very often, so if you want to discuss it, Private Message me.

 

I'm just explaining the general principle behind why the rear tends to step out with a bigger rear bar.

The RealTime ITR's run 800/1200 lbs springs and who knows how thick sways, so I do see where you're coming from.