Just to clarify on behalf of Speedtrial, because there is some misinformation floating around...

There were between 65 and 75 off course excursions during the course of both days of the Speedtrial event this past weekend at VIR. Not 90. Approximately 6 of these required a tow truck, and 4 of those 6 were due to mechanical failures instead of contact. The rest were "harmless" agricultural experiences.

The offs happened in ALL groups, all weekend long, with a statistical majority on Saturday before lunchtime. Unfortunately I can't say which group had the most, but I believe it was the beginners, with the intermediates following closely behind.

To put that into perspective, on Saturday we ran 38 beginners / 38 intermediates / 28 advanced drivers / 40 instructors. And on Sunday we ran 33 beginners / 29 intermediates / 26 advanced drivers / 34 instructors. So the track had a LOT of cars on it, for a LOT of laps, all weekend long.

Every time someone went off, no matter how minor, they were expected to report to the pits and have a "discussion" with the pit-out guy (myself, Lee from VIR, or various volunteers).

This was discussed repeatedly during the drivers meetings and classroom sessions. Not reporting immediately to the pits resulted in an immediate black-flag, plus "discussion" about why the person didn't automatically pit-in. These "discussions" ranged from a semi-friendly slap on the wrist, to a stern warning for repeat offenders. But there were still approximately 50 offs on Saturday alone.

On Sunday morning during the drivers meeting, it was announced that there would be a "2 = goodbye" policy... that is, go off-track twice during the day and you will be removed from the track for the rest of the day. This helped, as the number of offs went down, but it didn't solve the problem completely.

So on Sunday at lunchtime, there was an emergency "come to Jesus" meeting held by chief instructor / classroom guru Ron Spencer. At that point, the rule was issued that ANYONE who went off the track from then on would be removed from the track for the rest of the day.

As for instructors... we used a very high standard to retain their services (2+ years of instructing experience, plus training from a recognized organization like BMWCCA or NASA, plus references from 2+ chief instructors).

There were a couple of exceptions to this for a few beginner students, due only to the fact that we simply didn't have enough hands and considered a slightly lesser-trained instructor to be better than none at all (i.e. lead-follow), but for the most part, they were all very highly skilled instructors mostly from BMWCCA, PCA, NASA, and SCCA.

Ron Spencer, a well known and respected classroom guy and chief instructor from NC, was given complete control of all his stated duties, and I think he did an awesome job.

However, this does not explain the unusually high number of "offs", and I do not believe they were his fault.

In my opinion, the track itself played a big role. It is a big/fast place, but it also has acres of runoff room in many corners, which makes students a lot less concerned about offs than they would be at a place like Watkins Glen, with blue guardrails just about everywhere.

As far as the organization goes, we did everything in our power to keep them from happening, with a few exceptions (first beginner session under yellow and/or orientation laps if necessary). Everything *seemed* to be in place correctly, but the system obviously broke down somehow. Therefore, we are currently looking at ways to improve this for next time.

As far as I am concerned, as Event Director, I failed at doing something if *that* many people mowed the grass in their cars. So I am currently accepting *constructive* criticism in public or private. (Don't be afraid to offend, but please make sure your suggestions have valid information.)

I am now just barely into my fourth year as an event organizer/promoter, and although this event went well in many ways, the number of offs is unacceptable to me. I remain dedicated to providing the highest-quality, safest road course events possible. Please help me figure out how to do it better for our return to VIR on Feb 23-24.

Thanks for reading,

Jon Felton
804.355.1010 work
804.938.TIRE cell

 

Maybe it's just because I've been in meetings about performance measures and decsision support all morning, but I think that gathering more data about the offs that occur would be useful in several ways.

All you'd really need is simple form that the Pit-out person would have. Just info on date, track, and conditions at the top. Then columns for: car number, session, corner where off occurred, controlled off(y/n)[in the instructors or corner workers opinion], instructor in car(y/n), damage(y/n), injury(y/n), or whatever else you want. Since folks should come in after an off and talk to pit-out anyway, it wouldn't take much additional time or effort to fill this out.

Punch this stuff into a database, and you could get all sorts of interesting information: Which tracks, corners, or groups have the most offs. % of controlled vs. uncontrolled. etc. Cross-reference to your registration and instructor/driver lists, and you could keep track of drivers who have a propensity for off-track excursions, and instructors whose students are involved in more uncontroled offs. A year of two of this data would help identify the most common problems and let you know if your procedures to reduce them are working.

This could even be used as a re-enforcement tool. Explain this procedure in the instructors and drivers' meetings, so folks know they will be monitored. Require that anyone(including instructors) who had an off report for a de-briefing immediately following the session, to go over lessons learned and get cleared. Not showing up = go home.

This should be doable without too much overhead, so it wouldn't significantly increase costs or time applied.

 

Excellent suggestion - thank you Jerry! We will definitely do that.

FWIW, I do have a list of offs by car number for Sunday only. You can kinda read down it and determine which ones happened in which groups. But nothing as complex as what Jerry suggests - although I would *love* to have that now, because it would paint a much more clear picture of what needs to be improved for next time.

Jon

 

Next time Jon I will make that my responsibilty as well as working grid and I am sure that is an idea Lee would be happy to work with us with

 

I tend to disagree with this statement primarily because of the fact that I have been to several events at VIR and their numbers of offs were nowhere near what we had occur this weekend.

Do I have any clue as to what the problem was? No. Did the organizers/instructors do something wrong? I don't think so.

I do have a suggestion however. I am a big proponent of negative reinforcement. I feel that the law needs to be layed early on. Institute the 2 times = bye bye rule from the first lap of the first session - and enforce it. This goes for instructors as well. 2 offs and they are no longer driving. This does not apply to mechanical offs or drive-offs however as Ron feels these types are acceptable and sometimes inevitable. I would also start off with a stern but positive "Come to Jesus" meeting before ANYONE hits the track. Let them know that although we are hear for fun, that this **** is serious.

In regards to the data collection: Morgan here are the things I would track if I had volunteered to do it:

- Driver/Group
- Session
- Car
- Tires
- Instructor
- Location of off
- Track conditions
- Reason stated by driver for off

 

If the track was portrayed in a safe light then we mis-led the students. No track is safe. Period. You can't give someone a false sense of security thinking they can't get burnt if they make a mistake. Also realize that the beginners only accounted for a portion of the offs. People who should have known better than to be complacent were guilty as well.

 

I agree in theory. But on this particular occasion we had no idea the weekend was going to turn into such a dust-cloud-producing, black-flag-serving, pit-lane-clogging event, so we decided to start with kindness and get more mean/serious from there as necessary.

If we had been hardasses from minute #1, I suppose there would've been fewer offs. Or else a lot more people kicked-out. Neither of those choices really solve the problem, though... they are just temporary fixes.

Jon

 

Jon, just FYI, the thread I started was in no way meant as a critiscism. I just hoped to remind the drivers that going off track at anytime is serious & can have very serious consequenses (sp?).
Something to add to Geezer's suggestions. To better manage the offs & to make sure all the students learned from the mistakes, NASA SF region has mandatory 'downloads' after each session. The downloads are a group meeting to go over mistakes, ask ?, etc. The downloads were suppose to be mandatory before but it was hard to account for everyone. This last season, they passed out small stickers after each download. No sticker, no track entry for the next session. Hmm, suddenly the people who missed or forgot about the downloads decreased.

 

We do a variation of the downloads for beginners & intermediates during the mandatory classroom sessions throughout the day. We hand out passes and collect them in pit/grid before that group goes out again.

We still aren't to the crux of the problem, though. EVERYBODY was going off. Even instructors and volunteer event workers (who were there representing Speedtrial... how good does that look to the track workers & managers?)

It's gotta be something more. Like, simply not enough structure in the program somehow. I can't help feeling like this all goes back to some significant oversight on my part, although I'm losing sleep trying to figure out exactly what that was...

Thanks for the thoughts folks, please keep 'em coming!

Jon

 

I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days. I didn't want to say anything for fear it might upset someone. But since you asked...

Was it the rain? Possibly, but it was wet for only the first 2-3 sessions. Offs continued well after the track dried out. I've also driven that course in worse conditions with a fraction of the number of off we had. So, I discount the rain as the cause.

Honestly, the only thing I can come up with is the mentality of the students. I think there were a lot of egos there last weekend. It seemed to me some people had something to prove. They were on track with their buddy and wanted to go faster than him. I really think that a fair number of students wanted to show off to all their friends. And there were a bunch of Type Rs and holy-****-fast hybrids....

OK, there I said it. Hope I didn't **** people off too bad. But the egos have GOT to be checked at the front gate. We were DAMN lucky more bent cars didn't leave on trailers and tow trucks.

 

Speaking as a total novice to track driving (two totally unstructured fundays at Nelson Ledges in Ohio), i can only cite my limited experience: My first funday with D and some other friends, there were three groups: Beginners, Advanced road car, and full Race (some very angry purpose built cars), running in 20 minute groups throughout the day. Again, this wasn't a class, we were told the rules of passing, and the beginners got a lead car for a few laps on the first outing, but other than that, it's just drive until we wave you in. There were no offs during the beginer group all day. I don't think any of the advanced road car group went off either...all the offs (including two wall-hits by the same tube-frame corvette at the same place with 2 different drivers, all surface damage) were race-cars. The second time, there were beginner and advanced groups, and there were more offs, mostly in the advanced group again (most were lucky, the ground was super-soft from lots of rain, and cars would slide and sink, but not flip...there was a great deal of mud pulled from bumpers). There's no real runoff at Nelson, and tress or tirewalls aren't too far off the road from any direction. Indeed, the where the track is banked, the ground falls off beyond it, pretty much guarenteeing airtime before ugly contact. Before i went, a friend of mine and D's, Darren Schilberg, had taken this picture (the full sequence is in the "sweet pics" portion of the gallery section of our site)



This picture says a thousand words, most of them are four letters long. I'd say that pic gave me a good dose of reality before i hit the track, because it was taken at the very place i was pushing my own machine, on a funday for regular people just like myself. My second time there, i caught a mustang going off with my own camera, he got lucky, but left the track at nearly 100 MPH and could easily have ended up flipping



The last thing you want to do is scare people out of enjoying such a fun sport, but at the same time, it's important that people understand that it's a DANGEROUS sport when people get in the least bit reckless. The only stakes when taking a class or goign to a fun day are enjoyment and education....sometimes, things go bad, and we're lucky if we learn from them...but this shouldn't be the norm. Again, this is more pertinent to beginners, as advanced drivers have seen alot more than i have.

As for ego, i think there should be a very firm statement (marine corps drill style) that a class or fun day are absoultely not the place for childish behavior. Driving several thousand pounds of machine at 100 MPH is not the time for an object lesson in humility, or that you are not god's gift to the track. Sometimes, that VW with 80 less horsepower is better prepared, and more importantly, better driven....pushing your limits to prove something is to be saved for moments where there's something more important than pride on the line (or if it's your job) Okay, enough rambling....good thread, please learn us track newbies good

 

That could and can be a very bad thing.

I don't think that specifying a certain type car is fair at all. A wide variety of cars went farming.

Will

 

not me......hehe....but maybe we have hit upon something here.
I drove to the limit most of the weekend. Saturday, my first time ever at VIR and 4th time ever on the track, I had an instructor for the first session only. The other three sessions I drove solo and seemed to be moving at a faster pace then all the other beginers. i am not bragging, just stating what was true for that day. I never had an off, never even got close to an off.
Is this some special driver skill that I have that puts me a step up above others in my group? No, I do not believe so. I think it is attitude. I started slow and stayed slow until I was comfortable with the track. I did not push myself hard until I knew how the car was going to react on every part of the track. On the front and back straights I thought of the corners ahead and slowed my breathing to calm myself down(going through the uphill esses at 105mph will excite you), if I didn't do this I always went into roller coaster or turn 1 really hot. When the session was over I came off track and imediatley looked for someone to debrief about the session and to help calm myself down.(although I think Corey, Bryan, and Jon got annoyed with my constant jabbering)
This is where I am going to make my point. I made sure I was ready, not only physically, but mentally to take it to the max on the track. And even on the track I kept myself in check the whole time. Maybe the problem is not driving to fast for their abilities or not driving smoothly on line, but that the student is not recognizing what is happening to him mentally beyond the instructors commands. One of the best things I heard at my first track day was to use breathing as a driving technique, from pacing yourself to calming yourself down on track. This works for me and might for others. We need to make sure the driver is "mentally" prepared for driving on the track, from instructor to Advanced group.
Now the question is how do you mentally prepare aomeone for this? well honestly I am not that sure. Everyone thinks differently and drives somewhat different. What is the best way to know the person is mentally there to go out on the track, my suggestion is that the from the first class to the end of the first session the instructor should be with their designated student talking about things, wether it be track related or not. that way they know way more about the student than just hopping into the car and pulling out on track. My instructor on Sunday talked to me about my job and we had a conversation going until I was preparing for turn 1. I noticed how much more relaxed I was for that session because I was comfotable.

this is just my opinion and really don't have a good track background to throw this kind of info out there and expect it to be right so please take this as an idea and an observation.

 

I really think that a fair number of students wanted to show off to all their friends. And there were a bunch of Type Rs and holy-****-fast hybrids....


WTF!

 

You know I wasn't going to comment on a certain yellow Type-R that tried passing me out of 6 onto the straight in the first session under yellow who almost hit me. I was always told 18 inches by instructors at Summitt if you wanted to pass someone, but the first session 1st lap this guy had a mission, and it wasn't a safe one at all. This guy also throughout the day was slowing down then speeding up as I caught up to him. Eventually passed him a couple of times, but both my instructor and I had issues w/whoever this was. Really not safe at all. </rant>

Jon... personally I think you did what you could and held a well run event. The ultimate responsibility does reside in the driver's and instructors to some extent on track. Was there room for improvement after so many off's, yeah... guess you could have been harder on folks earlier like you said. Don't know really. That's the only thing I could think of to do. Must be one of the lucky ones b/c I only saw two off's(one white Civic hatch and somebody who went off at 10 and disappeared literally).

---
David
'97 Jetta GLX
'83 Rabbit GTI

 

I think at this particular event there were an abnormally high percentage of modified cars with high horsepower, unforgiving suspensions, and drivers unaccustomed to them.

 

Was this you?



I wanted to see the H22 goodness, but never saw you

 

Having been a participant in one way or another at maybe 2 dozen schools so far (instructor/worker meetings are enlightening), yes it's a new track, yes it was partially wet, but basically Morgan, Madd Matt, Cobra, and a few others have hit upon the problem. It's hard to calm down that red mist.

These are driver's not racer's schools, while that doesn't mean you can't have fun, the objective is not to go recklessly ***** out all the time. We're damn lucky we didn't have any Major incidents, at Summit going off in turns 3, 4, and 10 like that would have bitten some of you in the ***. Check out those Cobras that went home mangled, and ask Jon about some of the previous Summit (NASA and others) casualties. You don't want to leave on a flatbed or have to fix it up like Warren (sorry!).


[Modified by 4WDrift, 11:09 AM 12/13/2001]

 

Why, yes, that is me. Looks like my strait-off going into the NASCAR Bend.

 

I'm a fast-*** hybrid...The reason I went off...wet...water on turn 1...on the first lap! I didn't go off the rest of the time...
I have had 3 off's in my Track time: ALL WERE CONTROLLED OFFS
1st Todd Reid's friend was with me...turn 4 summit point...i way early apex'd and said I"M GOING OFF...Hang on....i knew way before the turn i was going off and braced for it....front left tire went off, rear left tire went off, front right tire and rear right tire....i controlled it...stayed off the way....why did that happen like? well during down time after my first and second runs i visually went through each corner and figured an escape plan or a planned off....why....cause i didn't want to be in a situation i hadn't thought about...yes there probably were situations that i couldn't think of. I did not YAM on the brakes cause i knew i'd slide right into the tire wall...i drove the car off....i did the right thing cause i planned it out...
2nd off...second weekend at summit turn 5...i went in way too hot...didn't lock the brakes up....i thought i could make the turn and still think i could have but the instructor said "DRIVE IT OFF GO STRAIGHT don't force it" so i did! drove straight through and came out at 8...also a controlled off....there was no traffic behind me, why do i know this? because i check my mirrors!!! for that reason i think i could have made the turn....yes it would have been way off line or i would have dropped one or two tires off...
3rd off (2tires off) i spun in turn 1 at vir first session first lap...i had had about 7 laps on vir at reduced speeds and bout 15 in a car...i spun only cause it was wet out and i had slicks on the rear...two feet went in as soon as i could not regain control....

i don't go ***** out on a track till the second day unless i know the track then i take the first couple of sessions to cool myself and framiliarize myself with the track again...
non of these offs had to do with the EVENT ORGANIZERS at all!!!!
i don't know if there is anything that can be done other than say 2 offs and you are out! some people have IT some don't! i know that i will go off again someday...now i will need to be prepared for that!!

just my thunks.....