Officially, the NASA Club Codes and Regulations state that a student must have four days on track with two of those days being in a full out race car to be eligible for a provisional racing license. This is a minimum and may vary slightly from region to region.

The system has worked incredibly well to date because a potential racer learns first how to drive at speed on a race track during the High Performance Driving Events (HPDE) before taking on the challenges of racing. This system is in contrast to other systems available. It is more rigorous but ,generally, much less expensive, and.....always fun.

NASA allows the potential racer to start in the novice HPDE group with just a stock street car. No special safety equipment besides a helmet is necessary. The driver can build the potential of the car through modifications as he builds his skills. It's like Gran Turismo for real. This is not to say that a beginner HAS to start out in a stock street car. A beginner can use a modified car.

The Virginia region of NASA typically requires that a Fast-Track license candidate be prepared for two HPDE novice group weekends, one HPDE intermediate group weekend and an HPDE advanced/evaluation group weekend in order to secure a provisional license.

Once a driver has received their provisional comp. license they must run four races under their provisional license without incident before receiving their NASA national competition license. If someone starts out at the beginning of a season in a Novice group they can, potentially, be racing by the last half of the season.

Hope that helps.

Chris Cobetto
Director, NASA-VA

 

Question...

Can a individual run a HPDE in the "advanced/evaluation group" during a weekend using a car that is not "a full out race car"?

Will
-who will not be in the Honda Challange in 2002... but maybe in 2003

 

yep

 

Not this year if I have any say in the matter. Exceptions were granted for Honda guys preparing their car for this year.

Grumpy

 

this is great news for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

 

And my $.02 is that this is "THE WAY" to do this.

Not to knock SCCA because I'm a happy long time member, but under their current approach to licensing a complete and total novice who has never turned a wheel on track can spend two days at a double school and be licensed to race the following weekend.
That means a guy with single digit track sessions is now lined up to race wheel to wheel. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to take the green flag next to this fella.

Under the NASA approach, the guy lined up next to you may be a rookie to racing, but at least he has 4 weekends (minimum) on track learning basic vehicle control at speed. A MUCH better proposition IMO.

 

My opinion is that even though the NASA system is worlds better than SCCA, the NASA system still liscenses people too fast. I did two years of track events (5 weekends the first year, 11 weekends the second year) and skip barber racing school before I did wheel to wheel, and I still wasn't fully prepared to "race". It was enough however to stay safe while I learned what I needed to. I just don't believe that in 4 weekends you can learn how to drive on the track, how to drive at the limit, and then how to race at the limit - when you are on a less than ideal line with traffic. For example, thinking back, after only four weekends I don't think I would have been able to hold the inside line through a turn at speed without tracking out and making car to car contact with the poor soul on my outside. It just isn't enough time to be at THAT level of driving.

The tough part is that it feels like you are at that level to the driver. After your first couple of weekends you are picking up speed. You are finding yourself dominating the DE sessions, passing cars that you have no earthly business being faster than, and everything is rosey. You're good, you know that. Hell, you're probably the top 1% out there. In fact, the only thing keeping you from being a star in Speedvision Cup or ALMS is the lack of money. These other guys are hacks, you're the real deal. I can race wheel to wheel, and I'll kick everybody's asses because I have more natural talent than Kimi. Then you get to turn 1 of your first race and realize that the track looks VERY different when you are offline because of traffic. Cars are diving in on you, and the places where you want to put your car are rapidly being filled by others, and that's when it occurs to you. "When the hell do I start braking when I'm on the inside of the turn and can't drift out on the exit?" And you have no idea....

You brake too early, you risk being hit from behind because the driver about 2" off of your back bumper knows where you should be braking, and it isn't there. You brake too late, you slide into the car next to you. Racing and track driving tend to give drivers false confidence. It's like life, at every stage of the game, you think you know everything you need to know, and can't believe how ignorant you were before. Then a year rolls by and you think NOW I know everything that I have to know, and I can't believe how naive I was a year ago to think I knew it all back then. I still don't know it all, I'm totally aware of that. However, I do know a hell of a lot more than I did after 4 weekends, that's for sure!

The scary thing is that if we are liscencing some of the Honda Challenge racers too easily, I'll be one of the ones to pay the price. A rookie in H2/3/4 will probably end up qualifying close to me in H5, so I'll be the one that they are dicing with on their first wheel to wheel experience.

I know it sounds extreme, but if we are trying to emphasize the lack of car to car contact in the series, I would like to see drivers looking at a minimum of about 10 weekends or so before they can try to race with us. They don't all have to be with NASA, just 10 weekends on a track, learning how to do what we do SAFELY.

JMO

Matt

 

Matt, I understand what you mean about that.. But take me for example, I only had been driving on the track for one year then I obtained my NASA provisional licence, and had to pull teeth to get it done (move up quickly) In by NO means was I going to do a SCCA school, or spend big bucks with a skip barbor school. If it wasn't for NASA's system, I wouldn't be able to race next year, and no one is complaining about my lack of skill.. If someone isn't skilled, they will not move up fast in the NASA system.. Instructors must recommend them to move up, if they do not have the proper patience, skill, knowledge to satisfy the instructor, the student will no progress fast, and will require more experience before they do advance..

In my licence observation, it required us to run offline (half-track), run side by side, and also do leap frog.. Previously I had only learned how to drive fast on the "line". I learned more that weekend then I ever have at a DE, and also had the most fun because of the new challenge..

 

I think I would have to agree with Matt here.. It's common sense.
I don't have a lot of wheel-to-wheel "Racing" experience, but I do have a hell of a lot of HPDEs in the Advanced/Instructor Groups under my belt. And I think this is enough experience for me to know that "Safe" is more important than "Fast", and in every situation on track, you have to make a judgement call between the "safe" way to react, and the "fast" way to react.. And you have to know the differences between the two, and then you have to find the fastest safe way. Just cause you can go around a track fast without wrecking doesn't mean your ready for wheel-to-wheel racing.. Racing wheel-to-wheel is going to double the amount of concentration needed to get around the track, and if you think you've got your hands full (or your head full) in HPDEs then your not ready to move to the next level. I think I'm ready to race, but I'll always be a little nervous/afraid.. and that may be what it takes to keep me on my toes, but I don't want too much fear from knowing that there's people out there with me who don't belong there.
And, Corey.. this is in no way aimed at you. We both know better than that.


[Modified by XR4racer, 11:17 AM 12/13/2001]

 

Not going to mention the racing school (wasn't NASA or SCCA) that I completed for my race license. To be quite honest, I really didn't learn anything that I didn't already know. It felt like a glorified HPDS. Eventhough I could get my SCCA license, I felt extremely uncomfortable doing so. Then I obtained my provisional license via NASA at a CMP event, was already there and thought why not. In 3 hours, I LEARNED more than I did in the 3 day race school. I believe NASA's rules to obtaining a license is far better than ANY other organization...PERIOD. I'm not trying to boost up NASA's licensing program, but my comfort level is much higher now than it was before getting the NASA License. NASA get's a from me.

 

Exactly the reason I want to run in the "advanced/evaluation group" ... but will not be able, because I don't (and don't plan to anytime soon) have a "a full out race car".

Will

 

Actually, I'd rather not. I don't want this to be personal at all. I'm going to use a philosophical "you" in this reply, just know that it isn't "you" meaning Corey, it means "you" in general.

no, not at all, BUT you also haven't raced yet. Nobody questions your DE skill level, but like you said, you learned more in those few laps of driving side by side during the liscense test than you did in all of your DE events. That shows that you still have a lot to learn, and there is nothing wrong with that. Ask yourself these three things though, "Are you racing because you are totally ready, and completely confident that you have achieved everything that you should have achieved on your way to this point, OR are you racing because of the excitement of the Honda Challenge, and you think you can 'get along' without causing too many problems while you learn more?" "If it wasn't for the Honda Challenge, would you be racing this soon in your career?" "Do you really feel that you are as ready to race as say Scott, who has been doing driver's eds and instructing for years?" (Again, not "you" as in Corey, "you" as in everybody.)

Then I think we need to make that clearer when we talk about the liscensing procedure. I think that a lot of people are going to read it, and think that they just have to show up for those events, in the run groups described, and have their liscense. If after two beginner events, they register for intermediate, are we even going to know that their instructor from the previous event doesn't think they are ready? They are going to see that they fulfilled their obligation and think they should be moving up. Before liscensing, is somebody going to go back and talk to each instructor to get their imput?

That still isn't racing though. Driving side by side is a lot of fun, but there is no sense of urgency. When you get into the braking zone, you don't really care who comes out of the turn ahead, after all, your instructions are to stay side by side. Look at the number of car to car incidents in the practice sessions compared to the races. Without the pressure of the race environment, it is NOT the same thing. Hell, even the kid in that red Neon could make it through a practice session without hitting anybody. Then he goes out in the race and made car to car contact FOUR times in one race. I'll guarantee you that he was the star of just about all of the DE events he took place in, but he isn't ready to race.

I'm not saying that you are going to be like him. I'm saying that at this point you have to honestly say that you don't know if you are going to be a good/safe racer. You haven't tried it yet. The possibility exists that you could be in over your head because of lack of experience, and it could be unsafe. (Do I have to say the thing about this not being specifically about Corey again, or is that still clear?)

Matt

 

Matt, what do you suggest we do to get our feet wet? Go into a practice race with the SCCA with 20 other people with NO experience.. Everyone always has their first time at racing, and im sure everyone was a nervious wreck..

I guess i'll have to go to the local go-cart track and try to pass everyone without hitting them.. I really have no other clue how to "practice" other than grabbing Karl, Robert, Jon, or Warren and practice "racing" during a DE. Suggestions would be appreciated..

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'll just stick to group 2 at FATT, even if it is getting more hacks in it than it had a couple of years ago.

Karen

 

That's the problem, there isn't a good way to do it. All you can do is get a LOT of experience doing the driver ed events to learn all about the car's characteristics, etc. Ideally, you would like to have to face almost every possible scenario under DE conditions, and learn how to deal with them safely, before you have to deal with them when you are racing. That can't happen in 4 events. The DE to racing step can be taken safely, I know, I've done it. However, I did 16 DE events before I started doing wheel to wheel, and even then, it was an adjustment. I wasn't exactly a slow learner either - from what I've seen, Corey and I progressed at similar rates (in terms of speed compared to those around us, and how quickly we moved up through the run groups). Regardless, I was just questioning whether 4 events was enough to take that step. From personal experience, I would say no. One weekend in the advanced group is not enough to prep you for racing.

Get rid of that smiley face at the end, this is a good idea if you can find a go kart place that uses carts that are fast enough, and on a course that is wide enough to really be able to drive it.

The point of my first message, which might have been lost, was that the main goal of this series was to create a racing series for ourselves where we were at lower risk in terms of damaging the cars. If we are running around throwing comp liscenses to everybody who owns a Honda and has done a few track events, we aren't making anything safer. I've had a car totaled on the track, and let me tell you, it sucks. I lost a championship, I lost about $7000, I lost about 3 months of labor to build another one, hell - I even lost my ride home since I drive the car to the track instead of trailering it. I want this series to be what we planned, a way to race with minimal threat to the car.

What we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg. After Carlisle, we are going to have MANY people who want to race with us, and are going to want to do the bare minimum to get to that point. They are going to want the glory of racing, and if we don't buckle down on the requirements, things could get ugly when they haven't matured enough on the track to get over the red mist. They're just going to want to win, and push it too hard. 13/13 is nice, but it's no consolation to the person who just had their car destroyed...

Matt

P.S. By my calculations Corey, you've done more than 4 DEs. I saw you at Summit twice, you did the Jeff circuit time trial, you did CMP at least once. Did you do the NASA VIR back in May? What about the full course one last weekend? Then you'll have the VIR full course weekend in February.... That's around 6 or 7 already, so you'll be pretty close to the 10 events that I suggested by the time the series starts, no?

 

Yes, I agree, 4 events it not really enough.. But they are also saying NASA events.. Thats all I did and had my provisional... But that does not include 4 friday at the tracks (summit point), 2 days at VIR full w/ speedtrial, and one day at jefferson w/ speedtrial.. So yes, I did have more experience then 4 events, but they weren't all NASA events..

Sorry about the smiley face, unfortunally the only go karts around here are the 5hp bumper carts.. :sad:

I understand completely, not everyone with a honda should get their licence, I'm sure NASA will get much "tighter" with their licenceing once we have a solid field of ECHC drivers..

Yes, your right and explained that above, before being observed for licence, I had 12 track DAYS... Several one day schools at summit.. Now I have 16 track days and should have 22 by the time ECHC starts..

 

See, what I'm concerned is that people interested in joining the series will only do NASA events and think they are ready.

I knew there was a reason I wasn't worried about you being in the series! Actually, with this in mind, your earlier comments totally prove my point. You mentioned how much more you learned when you were being tested for the provisional liscense, and that was after 12 days, not just the 6 suggested (since the last of those 4 weekends is the test). You are coming into the series with 22 days under your belt, would you really feel comfortable going in with less than that? If the answer is no, you agree that 4 weekends is not enough.

Matt


[Modified by speedracer33, 2:46 PM 12/13/2001]

 

My answer is no, no one should try it with less... 4 weekends, 8 days, does not seem correct now that I have added up all my events.. But also, NASA has to keep track of how a student progresses, and thats hard to do with speedtrial/car guys/PCA/BMW events.. They have to take the student's word in many situations.

 

but see, I thought that was the purpose of being observed for a week-end, including driving around side-by-side, etc. to gauge the student's abilities, and see if they seem to match what they claim. It seems to me (maybe that's unreasonable, I dunno) that by riding around with someone for a day in advanced group, you should have a decent idea of his/her competency level, especially after running through some passing drills, offline running, etc. Am I way wrong here?
Of course, if some people are given provisional license without that personal observation, then that defeats the whole purpose... But I was under the impression that that did not happen.

 

Corey -

Remember how you bugged me to move you up because you had all that autox experience???? Remember my response???

You moved up through the HPDE. You had more than 4 driving events. Are you ready to go WTW??? We'll see. I'll bet you come in a little humbled after your first race. But that okay. That's the way it works.

Matt is so right on target we may have to use him for all our promotions.

As much as we are interested in getting new drivers out there, you know by now that getting them out there with the proper training is our way. The best thing we can do for you AND NASA is train, guide, build good - no excellent drivers. And I think we are starting with a good core of people.

That's why we are having a REAL competition driving school in February. With prepared race cars, prepared drivers - the whole nine yards. You WILL get a taste of real WTW.

So with that said, I expect to see a lot of you out there (those with the appropriate track time) getting yourself prepared to go WTW.

I can almost quarantee that you will be better than most SCCA novice drivers because you will have the theoretical background, the practice, and the tools to help you assess race situations as they come up.

SO whose in for the school?

I have a gazillion Porsches lining up for this school also, and pass on to your already racing friends --- this is not an exclusive school.

Elyse
NASA Registrar

 

I will attend for the school, I want more experience..!

 

EXACTLY!!!
and the only way to get better is practice and experience....

 

Elyse - I suppose I don't have to tell you that I'm up for the school, huh? (keep a leetle spot open for me)

 

If I can fit it in my schedule, I'll go too. You can't have enough practice... (unless the school has a waiting list, in which case I'll give up my spot to somebody who needs it)

Matt

 

Great discussion, I want to point out a couple of things.

First, not everyone who is getting observed is getting a license. That should tell you something.
Second, as alluded to multiple times above, the NASA system isn't perfect, but it very likely the best thing going. Again, SCCA will throw someone with TWO DAYS experience on track into a 40 car IT field. Uhhhh... not good.

I understand your concerns Matt. Karl and I have them as well.
When we line up for the first couple of Honda Challenge races, there will be ALOT of racing rookies out there (please note that this will be HAMMERED INTO EVERYONE"S SKULL in the drivers meetings), but I feel confident in that as it sits right now, Corey is pretty much the most inexperienced person we have.
Quite frankly, that's not at all a bad starting point.

PS - $5 says the first "incident" in the Honda Challenge won't be caused by a rookie, but by an experienced IT driver trying to show everyone how damned fast he is.
Any takers?