Cocky Dr. driving in HPDE2 but thinks he is really racing and so does his whole family: $500,000
One Blue sports car with white stripes: $90,000
Weekend at R.R: $250
Spinning twice on Saturday: $20 (cost of washing dust off)
Look at Drs wife's face when you tell her that he husband never hit turn one and is sitting on the 5 foot tall sand bank at the end of the straight away: priceless
Blue Viper with white stripes: $40,000

The part that really gets me is the fact that my wife was standing over by their RV and Mrs Dr was talking on her cell and she said "I'm really worried about these other cars out there because our car is so expensive and I don't want any of them hitting our car" and in the end it is his own fault that he may have totalled out his Viper. The car was amazing on the straight but anything could have pulled it in the turns. All I saw was blue/grey smoke at the entrance to turn 1 then dust, once it settled you could see the poor Viper on top of the bank. Maybe he needs to learn how to drive an underpowered car around the track before he gets his next Viper out on the track. I was very thankful that no one was in his way one they would have been dead meat and thank God the radicals were in the pits.

 

PICS are needed.

 

That needs to be reworked a little to be funny.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That needs to be reworked a little to be funny.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not funny no matter how you work it.
This situation is seen at least once (usually more) at every HPDE. If he was really that bad and that out of touch with what he was doing his instructor should have reeled him in before he twisted the car. If that didn't work, the officials should have spoken with him. If that didn't work... "Hope BMWCCA lets you join them."

I wasn't there, so this is based on information in this thread and the other. But if he really "thought he was racing" and was "in over his head all weekend..." Hey, it was somebody elses responsibility to get that under control before Sunday. What if a Radical was in front of him when he pulled this stunt???
Uhhh... Yeah.

Was his instructor still in the car or had he been signed off?
I'm betting I know the answer to that one already.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PICS are needed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Rubbernecker.

Scott, shaking his head.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PICS are needed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No!

If you wadded your **** up at a school or race do you want pics of your busted, mangled car posted all over the net for everyone to point and laugh "hey look at that jackass!" even if the incident was due to no fault of your own (**** happens, maybe someone dropped oil)?

I didnt think so.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Its not funny no matter how you work it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You make a good point. Back in my PCA DE days there was generally at least one of these every few months. Some people don't necessarily understand that fast isn't the same as skilled. There should be some sort of HP restriction for those who are less experienced and/or overconfident. Maybe we can invent that, call it the rookie inhibitor and become very, very rich.

 

Maybe we (instructors) should carry some restrictors to stuff in the intake tubes of all V8's and turbos in the n00b group

 

Why do I find myself agreeing with Catch so often recently?

Seriously. These people are STUDENTS and, last I checked, the TEACHERS are responsible for their behavior. I've benched at least two miscreants in the past and explained clearly to a couple others that they would get the track-time equivalent of a time-out if they insisted on making bad decisions.

Imposing an artificial HP restriction or some other such silliness is like hoping that school uniforms will magically fix student behavior in a middle school. Some grown-up just has to be in charge.

K

 

Speaking of instructing... if the points work out like they probably will I think I'm going to skip Round 7 and instruct so I can get some low pressure seat time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Imposing an artificial HP restriction or some other such silliness is like hoping that school uniforms will magically fix student behavior in a middle school. Some grown-up just has to be in charge.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The question that begs to be asked is who? What motivation, other than their own personal standards, does one have to take on the full responsibilities that come with being an instructor? Sanctioning bodies are almost always short on instructors so I doubt they're going to punish them for making bad decisions. How can situations such as this be prevented <U>before</U> they happen instead of being addressed on a case by case basis?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How can situations such as this be prevented <U>before</U> they happen instead of being addressed on a case by case basis?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You get a feel for whether the student is getting in over his head really quickly. The student will have his vision down (or vision parked on the bumper of the car in front of them), very tense/not relaxed, not communicating at all, death grip on the steering wheel, trying to bite off big chunks of speed in the turns, very choppy/aggressive inputs.....

I back them off, make them drive a session in 4th gear, pull them into the pits to talk/cool off, etc, something. It is in your best interest to keep them on a short leash (especially the novices) because its your *** in the seat as well - I wouldnt want them to park the passenger side into the pit lane wall.

 

I understand how one can do it but my question was more of how one can be forced to do it. I mean, if an instructor half-asses their responsibilities, situations like this can and do happen. How are situations where an instructor clearly made a poor decision to sign someone off or not "properly" instruct prevented?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How are situations where an instructor clearly made a poor decision to sign someone off or not "properly" instruct prevented?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think its just an experience thing. I usually go out and watch my students from somewhere on the track for a session if I've signed them off just to see what they're doing.

It helps if you take control of the 'situation' from the beginning of the weekend. Talk to them before you even get to the grid and set up some clear goals for the weekend so they're less concerned about rolling that mustang/vette/m3/porsche/etc.

 

No pics cause I would be pissed if someone did that to my little CRX. He did have an instructor with him. The attitude that the gentleman gave off to my wife was on of being way above everyone. She went over just to say hi and in a 5 min conversation he said he was a Dr for pilots only about 4 times and my wife overheard there conversations about "lower cars" and other people. There was a guy out there in a Z06 which is close to a Viper, but he was in HPDE2 with the Viper and said that he felt like he was out of control in al the sessions. The instructor who knows what was going on in the car...good thing the instructor was also a Dr just in case either one of them needs medical attention.

What I hated about the situation is the guy attitude. If he wants to race that is cool but we all know HPDE is not racing. But this kind of crap makes the price of these events go up for everyone and lets face it there are a lot of us that aren't Dr's that can throw money around when the price goes up. And his attitude seemed like the type of guy who would go after NASA for some stupid reason. If I did that to my car I would be pissed but I would tuck my tail and go home and fix my car without a big production.

It just frustrates me cause he "owned" the track. I am a slower car, everyone here has seen my car, and RJ has riden in it. My car is a flat black CRX stock 1.5 multi point beast and there are other car that are slow on track also and if he would have gotten into on of them they would have been toast. A guy in a radical would have been dead. And for some of us the HPDE car is driven to the track and driven home. It was his whole attitude of, he was the only one that matters. His Viper was an amazing machine the speed he was carrying was awesome to see there is no doubt about that. His attitude definitely needed humbled and he was humbled.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and RJ has riden in it. My car is a flat black CRX stock 1.5 multi point beast </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not too bad for a 1.5L and all season tires

Get some falkens and a D16A6 and have some fun

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think its just an experience thing. I usually go out and watch my students from somewhere on the track for a session if I've signed them off just to see what they're doing.

It helps if you take control of the 'situation' from the beginning of the weekend. Talk to them before you even get to the grid and set up some clear goals for the weekend so they're less concerned about rolling that mustang/vette/m3/porsche/etc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you're missing my point. Scott was talking as if the instructor dropped the ball, which may have very well taken place. We've all seen instructors that are quick to sign people off when they shouldn't be. That's not necessarily the case here but assuming that it was for demonstration purposes, how is a situation where the instructor doesn't care and just signs off the student because they don't want to be bothered with it prevented?

 

Falkens are coming @ Christmas, but I can't afford a D16 cause I already got the 1.8 LS motor.

You ought to see my left front tire now...wow there is still rubber pealing off it from the weekend, and I'll swear they stupids things still haven't worn...darned 440 treadwear tires, been looking for an excuse to give my wife but they won't freaking wear!!!!

Even some high level instructors were shaking there heads when the incident happened, almost as they saw this happening before it did.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how is a situation where the instructor doesn't care and just signs off the student because they don't want to be bothered with it prevented?</TD></TR></TABLE>

They should be asked not to come back.

Sorry, thats just unsafe.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you wadded your **** up at a school or race do you want pics of your busted, mangled car posted all over the net for everyone to point and laugh "hey look at that jackass!" </TD></TR></TABLE>

Unless, of course, it's a certain blue BMW that you could use to demostrate a point from time to time...


IMO, the entire discussion is inappropriate - primarily because noone really has any actual information to share. So the guy was running his mouth to his wife... or maybe she was just adding her own embellishment to his story.

It happens... whether it's the viper owners talking about the poor people in their hondas, or the honda owners talking about the rich guys who can't drive... Just because you didn't like the conversation you overheard doesn't mean that the guy "got what he deserved".

 

sounds as if this guy was one of "those guys". You know. I think we've all had one of them at least once. Someone who is extremely successful in some aspect of their life and assumes that it means they know everything else, certainly more than you do. Generally found in 996TTs, e46 m3s as well as vipers. Just keeping them reeled in is about all you can manage. One of the instruc-tors worst nightmares. Probably even worse than the 18 year old in the evo or STi.

 

Actually this thread could become constructive. (...and obviously I'm not specifically talking about this viper incident.)

I balled my car up once when I was driving ahead of my skill set. I wish I could pass on some of the stuff I learned to some of the newer students out there that understand the theory but haven't been able to apply it -- probably most HPDE 1-2 studends.

The problem I see with HPDEs is how do you teach someone to drive close to the edge without going over the edge -- you really can't (eventually). So somewhere during an HPDE there needs to be a safe place to cross the edge. There is so much concrete around the tracks these days that even the track isn't a good place for it -- and quite frankly, I don't want people experimenting with/learning oversteer near me on track.

I drove like a bat outta hell when I was a teenage driver, but with a low hp fwd car, so I never got to experience redneck oversteer, which is how most people get comfortable with oversteer. I was driving faster and faster on track, and when that oversteer monster bit, I really wasn't prepared.

I started teaching at a teenage driving school and got some seat time in a skidpad and in a box exercise. Those two exercises taught me SO much -- about lift throttle oversteer, throttle+correction=good, etc, etc, AND allowed me to PRACTICE IT!

I'm suprised that HPDEs don't offer skidpads and box exercises. I would LOVE NASA, some of the CCAs to provide this instruction to HPDE1-3 students. I really believe there will be a lot less bent metal at track. I would easily give up a track session for 10 minutes for safe "box exercise" time.

I would be curious is anyone else out there has been to HPDEs where this was offered, comments, etc? Maybe I should have started out in autox.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpiceyRice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm suprised that HPDEs don't offer skidpads and box exercises. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This was routinely offered when I DEing with PCA Potomac. I never took advantage of it but probably could have benefitted from it. I'm surpirsed it's not offered in other groups but until now I totally forgot they offered it.

 

I never said he got what he deserved no one deserves getting there car wreck. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. And when he was in my session, for some reason, with HPDE3 he was driving over his head and went off and spun again his 2nd time for the day on Sat. And to wreck on Sunday there is a problem there, 3 off track incidents. And you are correct you weren't there and did see what happened. I was there and did see it. No matter what it has more to do with track behavior than anything. But when I hear his wife standing on top of the RV stating to a friend that they should come watch he husband race on her cell isn't factual? And I really don't take to kindly to my wife being implied as a liar. Sorry but back to my point...

Correct me if I am wrong RJ but if I would have spun twice with you in my car, you probably would have attempted to get me off the track or slow me down. It isn't the fact of being a Dr it is the fact of being in over his head.

Agree with the skip pad...grew up in Ohio with RW drive you learn to correct on the ice and snow real quick to keep in under control

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I understand how one can do it but my question was more of how one can be forced to do it. I mean, if an instructor half-asses their responsibilities, situations like this can and do happen. How are situations where an instructor clearly made a poor decision to sign someone off or not "properly" instruct prevented?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The sanctioning body has to take some responsibility for ensuring their instructors are adequate. History seems to indicate that a handful of instructors don't have the sense of self-preservation required to keep students under control or are more concerned about getting the free track time than teaching students.

Have a well defined path for instructors to better themselves (not just as drivers, but as instructors). Have well defined pre-reqs to be an instructor. Offer low-cost clinics. Encourage interaction between the instructors off track.

All clubs should have instructor log books, just as most now have student logs. Track instructors against incidents in their students' cars, track attendance at instructor clinincs, track feedback from students.

If an instructor has too many students suffer mihaps, or consistently gets less-than-stellar feedback from students, then it might be time to ask them to re-assess their instructing methodolgy or reasons for participating. Ater all, the instructors aren't true volunteers - they're paid with free track time - so if they can't do the job, don't pay them.

Some lessons I've learned during my limited time instructing...
1. It's hard work. It's mentally and physically draining to jump from car to car, not to mention trying to get my own track time in on top. I often end up skipping my own sessions on Sunday just to relax.

2. Instructor clinics are a very good thing. Being able to interact with other instructors in a somewhat structured environment is good (especially without the stress of car hopping). Ensuring all instructors know what is expected of them and of students is good.

3. All students are different. Some get "it". Others don't. Some just want to have fun. Others want to go racing. Dealing with the different types can be tricky - but the first step is to figure out which type is behind the wheel. Use the yellow-flag laps to interact with the student - what do they want? Why are they here? Do they have any experience?