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The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

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Old Nov 16, 2017 | 09:45 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by bluuu
Am I remembering correctly that the Williams chassis were pretty butt during the JPM/BMW days too? Like the BMW unit was always strong but the car just good?
So butt that JPM had like 5 poles in a row butt?

Old Nov 16, 2017 | 09:57 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by bluuu
The McLaren chassis seemed pretty garbage in 2014. Driver lineup was also not ace, as much as I like Button.
And a thoroughly defeated/broken Massa and Bottas are an ace line up? I'm not saying WIlliams had a great chassis in 2014 but your arguement of McLaren having a garbage chassis proves the point you are trying to argue. Williams had a better chassis than McLaren. Wiliams have been out developed during subsequent seasons.

Who employs moar people. Williams or Force India. I wonder if part of the problem is Williams is bloated and has side projects they are working on. FI only cares about F1. Williams has their hands in many pies.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:06 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by falcongsr
Williams has a significant legacy and used to be able to afford to carry a lot of overhead.
I don't think they ever carried the overhead that a team like McLaren or Ferrari did/do.

I remember reading an interview with Paddy Lowe, he was talking about how when he went from Williams to McLaren in the early 90s that McLaren had an entire department dedicated to active suspension, whereas the team at Williams was like 5 people.

Williams has always been a team that tries to do more with less. They've never overpaid for drivers, remember their splits with Damon Hill, JV, JPM, RSC, etc. They lucked out in the 90s because they had a bunch of really smart people like Lowe & Geoff Willis (who were both big parts of the recent Mercedes dominance), Newey etc, along with a strong engine. (Also I forgot that Patrick Head really became hands off after 2003 or so)
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:09 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by BauleyCivic
I don't think they ever carried the overhead that a team like McLaren or Ferrari did/do.

I remember reading an interview with Paddy Lowe, he was talking about how when he went from Williams to McLaren in the early 90s that McLaren had an entire department dedicated to active suspension, whereas the team at Williams was like 5 people.

Williams has always been a team that tries to do more with less. They've never overpaid for drivers, remember their splits with Damon Hill, JV, JPM, RSC, etc. They lucked out in the 90s because they had a bunch of really smart people like Lowe & Geoff Willis (who were both big parts of the recent Mercedes dominance), Newey etc, along with a strong engine. (Also I forgot that Patrick Head really became hands off after 2003 or so)
this is how I feel after juan of Booley's well thought out posts.



j/k - that's how I feel like after running on 4 hours of sleep for the past 2 weeks thanks to a baby that likes to party at night.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:10 AM
  #6330  
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

so you're saying they suck now more because of lack of design talent more than lack of money?
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:14 AM
  #6331  
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by Tim2179
So butt that JPM had like 5 poles in a row butt?
I was like 10 when JPM was a driver that mattered.

That's why I asked.

Originally Posted by 1158
And a thoroughly defeated/broken Massa and Bottas are an ace line up? I'm not saying WIlliams had a great chassis in 2014 but your arguement of McLaren having a garbage chassis proves the point you are trying to argue. Williams had a better chassis than McLaren. Wiliams have been out developed during subsequent seasons.

Who employs moar people. Williams or Force India. I wonder if part of the problem is Williams is bloated and has side projects they are working on. FI only cares about F1. Williams has their hands in many pies.
Bottas & Massa were both serviceable. KMag sucked & Button was out of it. The Williams was fine, the McLaren chassis was similar, probably a bit worse. They've since not done enough to improve on that, but it isn't like they suddenly forgot how to make a competitive car. I'm not sure they knew in 2014 either.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:14 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by falcongsr
so you're saying they suck now more because of lack of design talent more than lack of money?
Well they certainly have top notch drivers...
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:17 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by falcongsr
so you're saying they suck now more because of lack of design talent more than lack of money?
I think it's a combination of both. They're public now and as a result their number one goal is to turn a profit. They parted ways with Pat Symonds, whose arrival in 2013 seemed to correlate with improved performance in 2014 and 2015 (the Merc engine obviously was the biggest part but they didn't beat McLaren and FI through sheer luck).

Lowe joined in March from Mercedes, so the 2018 car will be the first to bear any of his input. Will be interesting to see if they improve next year. I honestly thought Lowe + Merc PU might have been enough to lure ALO away from McLaren.

Originally Posted by bluuu
I was like 10 when JPM was a driver that mattered.
That doesn't stop you from commenting on a bunch of other dumb **** that you know nothing about. I was 4 when Senna won his first title, doesn't mean I don't know how to use google or youtube.

Last edited by BauleyCivic; Nov 16, 2017 at 11:13 AM.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:22 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by bluuu
I was like 10 when JPM was a driver that mattered.

That's why I asked.
You must have been 10 for a loooooooooooooooooong time, because JPM ALWAYS MATTERS!
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:22 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Speaking of Senna he just won Monaco to take 4 in a row to start 1991. Dat V12 Honda sound. Ooof

Mansell 2nd in the Williams Renault.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:23 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by Tim2179
You must have been 10 for a loooooooooooooooooong time, because JPM ALWAYS MATTERS!
P sure he still is 10...
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:23 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

By mid 1991 Williams were the car to beat...thanks to Paddy Lowe's suspension voodoo.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:28 AM
  #6338  
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Yeah Patrese and Mansell (in red 5!) just locked out front row in Montreal.

Senna was the only one that could drag a car to challenge the FW14
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:29 AM
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My Favourite Race - Paddy Lowe | Feature | Crash

My Favourite Race - Paddy Lowe
Will Saunders
22 Jul 2015
Paddy Lowe looks back with Crash.net at the 1992 South African Grand Prix as his part in a Formula 1 technical revolution unfolded...

With a career in Formula One spanning almost thirty years, Mercedes' Executive Director (Technical), Paddy Lowe, has seen it all when it comes to drama, on-track action, championship deciders and classic races.

Unsurprisingly though for a man with a CV boasting senior engineering roles with Williams and McLaren as well as his current position with Mercedes, when asked for memories of his favourite race, Lowe concentrates on a race of great technical significance - featuring a starring role for an innovation which Lowe himself played a vital role in developing.

The 1991 Formula One season saw the beginning of a reversal in fortune, as Williams-Renault started to turn the tide against McLaren-Honda and re-establish themselves as the pre-eminent team in the sport. The Williams FW14 in the hands of Nigel Mansell ran Ayrton Senna close for the title, but fell short of preventing the Brazilian from claiming his third championship, and McLaren's fourth on the spin.

Behind the scenes though, the Williams technical department had been developing an innovation which they would unleash to devastating effect to dominate the 1992 season - starting at the South African Grand Prix in Kyalami. As Lowe explains, "I'd come to work for Williams at the beginning of their first generation of active suspension at the end of 1987 and racing it in 1988. We were really unprepared on every level to race something which for that era was so complex though."

"It wasn't even about the car itself, it was about the infrastructure in terms of people, technology, understanding, support - it was nowhere," continues Lowe. "We spent the next five years building that capability towards 1992 with the active suspension and traction control, whose first appearance was [Kyalami]. We spent five years building up to this point of playing our secret weapons - this was our moment."

According to Lowe, it was clear from pre-season testing that Williams had developed something special - but beating McLaren was as much of a mental obstacle as it was a question of lap times. "As it turned out, the active suspension and the traction control were both worth about a second a lap from our winter testing," Lowe explains. "McLaren had been so dominant through that preceding period. We gave them a bit of a hard time in '91 but they still won it, so my whole career up to that point they were always winning... I couldn't imagine that you could beat McLaren."

Having not tested alongside McLaren during the winter, Williams still had no idea of their rivals' pace heading to South Africa. Come FP1 in Kyalami though, and Williams' and Lowe's thoughts quickly moved from imagining to dreaming. "You go into P1, and we're massively quicker than them and you think, 'there's something wrong, they're just sandbagging or something'. As the sessions went on you began to believe that 'maybe we've got something here'," Lowe recalls.

Come qualifying, and Nigel Mansell took pole position by seven tenths with the McLarens of Ayrton Senna and Gerhard Berger second and third. Mansell's teammate Riccardo Patrese was a distant fourth, 1.5 seconds down on the sister Williams. It laid down a marker for the season, with Mansell in particular benefitting from the FW14B's characteristics. As Lowe tells us, "Nigel had come to that race on absolutely top form. He loved the active car, it really played to his strengths. [The car] had this feature where as you lifted off you lost the balance quite a bit - so the more you stayed on the throttle the more the car worked. [Nigel]'s a driver with huge confidence... and the active car thrived on that confidence."

Despite Mansell's dominant qualifying performance, Lowe was taking nothing for granted on race day. "I remember being on the grid and this car was quite complex and I was the only one who knew all of the things that could go wrong - more than anyone else," Lowe recalls. "I was feeling physically sick thinking of what could go wrong as there were so many new things on the car which had never raced before."

"Active suspension was something which took quite a long time to arrive, it was the product of 5/6 years work whereas the traction control was something that was the product of 3 months work - one of those things that just come together really nicely and added as much lap time," Lowe continues.

"Renault were a bit unhappy with [the traction control] because they hadn't done any endurance work with [it], so Nigel switched off his traction control in the race as Renault didn't want us to run it. Riccardo was being threatened by Ayrton so whenever he was threatened we told him to put the traction control on and he would leave him behind to open up a gap - then the Renault guys would come out and say 'turn it off!'. So we'd turn it off again and Ayrton would catch up - that happened two or three times."

Mansell duly went on to win the race, cruising home to take the chequered flag by 24 seconds from Patrese. It would be the first of three consecutive 1-2 finishes to open the season, and the first of six overall during the year. Mansell would go on to win the opening five rounds and a total of nine races en route to becoming champion with 108 points - all records at the time and illustrations of the Williams FW14B's dominance.

Mansell's win was memorable for many reasons, but Lowe reveals that a cheekily collected bonus memento offered an extra special significance. "I've actually got the champagne bottle from that race, which Nigel signed and wrote, 'First Win' on there," Lowe tells us. "I shouldn't really have had it as it was supposed to go to the mechanics... I felt a bit bad taking the bottle but I did sort of think, "that's mine, I earned that!"

Few would disagree as Lowe was one of the key men behind a quantum leap in performance, and it's little coincidence that McLaren in 1998 and Mercedes in 2014 also enjoyed similar jumps forward during Lowe's tenure. For Lowe, there are significant differences in the development race during the 1990s and today however.

"In those days we were far more resource limited," Lowe explains. "Now we are regulation limited, so if we find a gap in the regulations or a change is made we will exploit that right to the limit within days or weeks. We have all the knowledge, experience and technology... Back then there was a lot of technology in the aerospace industry that we weren't using. We were 20 years behind the times in terms of what was possible."

"You could come along and come up with an idea like active suspension, traction control or active steering, power brakes, automatic gears - and it wasn't about whether they were legal, they were all legal, it was about 'can I actually do that, and have I got the people, the capacity and the knowledge to implement that'," Lowe continues.

The systems that Lowe and Williams implemented in 1992 represented the pinnacle of technological evolution at the time. Not only was the Williams-Renault FW14B the outstanding class of the field throughout the 1992 season, but the success of that year instigated a period of dominance for the Grove outfit that well and truly knocked McLaren off their perch. The foundations of Williams' supremacy through the early 1990s were built on a mastery of the complex electronic systems that defined the era, and the 1992 South African Grand Prix was the first public demonstration of a technical weaponry so potent that all such devices would be outlawed by the Hockenheim Agreement barely 18 months later.

By then Lowe was en route to McLaren and plotting another reversal of fortunes, but even involvement in further epochal benchmarks such as the McLaren MP4-13's demolition of the field at the 1998 Australian GP, or the first outing of the Mercedes W05 at the same circuit 16 years later can't displace the fond affections of Kyalami '92 - proving that nothing is ever as sweet as the first time.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:42 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

The only reason the FW14 didn't win in 1991 was because it was so fragile. Senna had 1 DNF to Mansell's 5 DNFs and 1 DSQ. Only 1 of those 6 failure to finishes was Mansell's fault. He spun in Japan, the last of his DNFs.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:43 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Originally Posted by BauleyCivic
That doesn't stop you from commenting on a bunch of other dumb **** that you know nothing about.
Many, many folks would apply the same to you.

Originally Posted by Tim2179
You must have been 10 for a loooooooooooooooooong time, because JPM ALWAYS MATTERS!
NOPE.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 10:55 AM
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Old Nov 16, 2017 | 11:03 AM
  #6343  
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

oh deer
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 11:06 AM
  #6344  
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good points Bauley, i forgot about their corporate status.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 04:58 PM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Montoya: 'Kubica at Williams is a joke!'

Lots of people rooting for Bob but Juan is not juan of them

Montoya remains unconvinced by Kubica's prospects however.
"Honestly, it's a joke," said the seven-time Grand Prix winner who raced for Williams between 2001 and 2004.

"I'm sure Robert is no longer 100 per cent capable of pushing a Formula 1 car to the limit."
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 06:52 PM
  #6346  
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yeah... well... that's just like uh juan man's opinion
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 07:44 PM
  #6347  
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Fat, bitter Juan = same ole Juan.
Old Nov 16, 2017 | 08:20 PM
  #6348  
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He's crusty cause his lap record in Brazil was just beaten
Old Nov 17, 2017 | 05:25 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Just as we were discussing Williams and Lowe...look at the article that popped up on grandprix today

Lowe eyes faster car for Williams in 2018 > F1 News > Grandprix.com

NOVEMBER 17, 2017

Lowe eyes faster car for Williams in 2018

Paddy Lowe says he is focused on making the Williams a "faster car" for 2018.

After years of success with McLaren and Mercedes, the Briton and technical expert is now a shareholder and boss at Williams.

But following a brief renaissance, the once-great British team has more recently slumped again to fifth in the world championship.

Lowe, however, sees brighter times ahead.

"It's been a good year with some interesting challenges," he told France's Auto Hebdo.

"Getting familiar with the team, facing some difficulties specific to the middle teams compared to the ones at the front, is a new experience," Lowe added.

He insists that Williams is still a good F1 team.

"Williams is a good team, often setting the standards in pitstops for instance and our way of operating," he said.

"On the other hand, we need a faster car," Lowe admitted.

"We have the ambition to move forward and win again. That's why we're here."

He said Williams is currently hard at work on the 2018 car, including integrating the controversial Halo protection system.

"It's an important project, with an impact that is more structural than aerodynamic," Lowe explained.

"Making the right decisions for next year's car is an important project for the coming months. We'll see what we can learn from this year," he said.
Old Nov 17, 2017 | 05:43 AM
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Default Re: The Official Formula 1 2017 Season Thread

Things that I'm surprised the leader of an F1 team would seek to achieve:

a faster car.

Also: I saw in motorsports thread....I'd rather have Wehrlein in Williams' car than Kubica.



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