After my first year of serious auto-x, I am looking for R compounds to replace my A520. The new tires will be mounted on seperate rims for competiton use only.

I want to know the pros and cons of the Kumho Victoracers and Toyo RA1, my two choices...

PL

 

Don't forget the new Kumho that just came out.

 

The Kumhos are cheaper and stickier, but they don't last quite as long and they are somewhat heavier, which can slow a car down. They also require a more sporting alignment to last for a decent number of events. And they will only take a limited number of heat cycles before they are cooked - which means you can kill them if you use them on the street too much. They also aren't great in significant rain (i.e. puddles).

The Toyos are more expensive and not quite as sticky, but they last longer and they are a bit lighter. They are also less sensitive to alignment issues. And they will take more heat cycles than the Kumhos will before they get crusty. They also do better in rain because the tread is deeper.

For your first R-compounds, I think the Toyos are the better choice. They behave more like A520's than Kumhos so the learning curve isn't as steep. They will forgive more mistakes than the Kumhos and take a beating without complaint. They also last virtually forever, which will give you plenty of time to get used to R-compounds before you step up to the Kumhos.

Then again, the Kumhos are significantly cheaper... and they are fun as hell to drive on... so I guess either choice is a good one.

All my opinion of course, and some may disagree... but I hope it helps...

Jon

 

I don't know that I would recommend those to this person. I had a talk with the Kumho folks last week at SEMA about the two tires (which they displayed side-by-side), and from what I understand, the new Kumho is a lot more like a Hoosier than the old one. That is: lighter, grippier, less life, easier to flatspot, more sensitive to perfect alignment, and generally more like a slick than a street tire.

I stand by my recommendation that the Toyos are the best first choice.

Jon


[Modified by JonSE-R, 11:01 PM 11/6/2001]

 

I thought (by looking at the tread, hehehe) that the new Kumho were a tire in competition with the RA1. Seemed to look more street friendly than the old V700.

So even if the tires will be never driven on the street, you recommend for my first set the Ra1. Those would probalbly last more that one season right?

Opinion taken into considaration, thanks.

PL


[Modified by SpoonPL, 4:14 AM 11/7/2001]

 

Hey Spoon-

Take that as my opinion and nothing more. You will find a lot of qualified opinions on this board, from plenty of people more qualified to have an opinion than myself.

But yes, I think the RA1 is the better first choice. They will last more than one season depending upon how many events (and what kind of events) you plan to do. I mean, I know people who go through 4 sets of Kumho V700's a year, but they are some seriously fast and hardcore folks. I also know people who are on their 3rd season with the Toyos... so, again, opinions may vary.

As for the relativitity of the new Kumho to the old one, I literally heard directly from the Kumho folks at SEMA that the new one is stickier and more "picky" than the old one. The person you need to contact to answer that question is Rudy Consolacion at Kumho. I don't have his number or email handy right now but somebody here must have it.

Your first few events on R-compounds of any kind will involve a lot of re-learning. Even the Toyo is still night-and-day different from any street tire that I know of.

As always, hope that helps...

Jon

 

The tread compound is far more important than the tread design on the Ecsta V700s. They're intended to function as light rain grooving and to make the tires DOT-approved, as was the tread design on the Victoracers. They are intended to compete more closely with the Hoosier, which also come with a "tread" pattern that is quickly ground into oblivion.

 

Never having done a auto-x, I can't be sure if this is applicable. I know that for track use the Toyo's are much better they are shaved. They are harder to overheat. They seem to perform more consistently from session to session. The tires actually seem to last longer too. Make sure to gently bring them up to temp & then let them sit for a minimum of 24 hours to heat cycle them.

 

Having read everyones comments, I'd say it probably comes down to how competetive you want to be. My first year with my SE-R, I wanted to do national level events. I knew Toyos would not get the job done. Hoosiers were WAYYY out of my price range, and the G-force R1 was certainly not an option (expensive, but at least they don't last very long). That left the V700.

 

Again, this is for road racing. Several national level racers told me that they prefered the Toyo over the Kumho. Seems like the guys/gals who auto-x really like them. Is that for lapping days & road racing too? Most people I see at the road courses (N. CA), if they can't afford Hoosiers, run the Toyos. Is this a regional thing?

 

I've run both. The Toyos slide. A lot! Gotta be brave to run them fast. The good thing is that they suck for a miserably long amount of time. The Kumhos are a little less forviging in terms of breakaway, but they are stickier for sure, and hence short lifed.

Warren

 

>>The Kumhos are a little less forviging in terms of breakaway, but they are stickier for sure, and hence short lifed...<<

"Short lived" being a relative term. For autocross they'll still last *at least* one full season worth of events (15+) on a Honda/Acura. In my region, Khumos outnumber Toyos 20 to 1, maybe more since I can't recall a single driver of note who uses Toyos for autocross. The Khumo is cheap, lasts a good while, and can be pretty competitive with Hoosiers on asphalt. If they had the size I wanted, I would be using them instead of Hoosiers for sure.

 

What's wrong with sliding a little? Slip angle is a little more than the Kumhos, but I like the handling. On the track, they get really sticky when hot. Wear is nice and even. Even though they stay cool for autocross, overall I like them over the Kumhos, Goodyears, and BFG's for the money.


[Modified by 4WDrift, 5:26 PM 11/7/2001]

 

"In my region, Khumos outnumber Toyos 20 to 1, maybe more since I can't recall a single driver of note who uses Toyos for autocross. "

I auto x in Montreal, Quebec. In my region Toyos outnumber Kumhos 20 to 1. Only two people in our club ( 108 members) run on them. More than 20 run on RA1 for sure.

Ill probably go for a set of RA 1 since they cost one $ more here than the V700 cause I'll do some lapping and solo 1 next summer so I probably need the longevity.

PL

 

Hey guys, what about the A032r, where do you rank this tire?

Let's have the whole nine yard on r compounds

PL

 

I run them on my car and I am not saying that I have a very good perspective (I can compare these to the Kumho Ecsta street tire and the RE-71) but I would say that there doesn't seem to be a world of difference between them and the RE-71's.

I think the general concensus is they are a good intermediate tire and they are great if you want to commute on them. If I didn't have another set of rears in the basement, I'd be trying something else, most likely the Victoracer.

 

The A-032R is last on the R list for autox due to the grooving, but still will beat any street tire (not discounting Adam's experience). It does well for novice/intermediate schools and has a long life also.

 

It is also a kick *** rain tire for those who can't afford the Hoosier dirt trackers.

 

>>>I auto x in Montreal, Quebec. In my region Toyos outnumber Kumhos 20 to 1. Only two people in our club ( 108 members) run on them. More than 20 run on RA1 for sure.<<<

Interesting. There are some big differences from one region to the next.

Back to the original point of the thread, autocross tires. Let's eliminate the regional factor and talk about Nationals in Topeka KS. IMO, this is the best "cross section" (what a pun...) you can get for what would be considered good autocross tires. Obviously, Hoosier owns the event, but you'll see some Khumos as well. Even a national champ or two runs on Khumos. Toyos? Hmmm. Didn't see a single one. NOT ONE, in ALL the stock class results at this year's autocross nationals. May not have been a single one at the whole event, but I didn't feel like paging through all the results to find out.

So, national consensus is
Hoosier=#1 choice.
Khumo=distant 2nd, but still capable.
Toyo= toyo? Why would somebody autocross on those???

 

Actually that's a weak assement because Hoosier and Kumho both offer contingency awards where Toyo doesn't. If your going to go to an event where everyone else is going to be on the same two tires wouldn't you go as well just for the chance of extra money or new tires. Toyo doesn't pay up in Solo II so why should I run them.

The biggest and only thing holding RA-1s back in autoxing is they don't heat up quite as fast which is extremely important in a 3 lap day. Once they do heat up though they preform equal to or higher then V700s. I've tested each tire a number of times and the Toyos are equal in grip with the added benfit of lasting longer and maintaining the grip longer (over the life of the tire). Still not the best choice for National level tires, but at local events where you get 6-8 runs (at least around here)and a chance for them to heat up the Toyos can and will compete.

 

>>Still not the best choice for National level tires, but at local events where you get 6-8 runs (at least around here)and a chance for them to heat up the Toyos can and will compete.<<

Six runs over the course of an all-day event won't make that much difference in effective tire temps. Maybe for back to back fun runs, but who cares. The competition is over by that time, and there are specific rules in place to prevent cars from doing runs too close together in order to take advantage of tire temperature. The individual that started the thread is interested in "serious autocross".

>>Actually that's a weak assement because Hoosier and Kumho both offer contingency awards where Toyo doesn't<<

That's why you think Toyo's didn't make a showing at Nats? You're kidding right? We ought to take a poll at next years nationals to see how many drivers made their tire choice based on contingency money, and how many made theirs based on performance.

Since a *very* small number of Nationals entrants entertain thoughts (dreams maybe) of a top 3 placing, much less a class victory, contingency doesn't mean diddly to the majority of them. But if it did, then following your logic, there would be a LOT more Khumo drivers since they offer contingency money all the way down to 3rd place, whereas Hoosier only rewards the winner of each class. But, then again, there would be more BFG drivers than Khumo drivers because their contingency awards are slightly higher. Last time I checked, there were a *very* small handful of drivers on BFG's.

The fact is people run Hoosiers because they think it's fun to go really fast, and Hoosiers make them go the fastest. Some people run Khumos because they go pretty fast on them too, and they're a great budget tire. NOBODY runs Toyos because A) they're slooowww, and B) they're more expensive than Khumos.

If Toyo offered a contingency program similar to Hoosier and Khumo at the National Championships, it still wouldn't matter because no one would win it unless it was some type of exclusive deal. "$100 to the highest placed finisher on Toyo tires...". They'd have to look pretty far down the results list though...

 

"Serious" after his first year, I take his question to mean after he's gotten hooked running as a novice on street tires; right Spoon? While I don't disagree with your assessment of choices for Nationals, his original question was on comparing the Kumho and Toyo. I know a lot of local hotshoes using Toyos. Either one will be fine for his purposes, chosen on the characteristics of each.

 

I think I know you from somewhere... How's it going, Kevin?

 

It's serious autocrossing, the level of competition in my club is very high compared to the other clubs in Ontario and Quebec. I am not saying that the members of other clubs suck, the level is just higher here and you need r compound if you want to finish higher than middle pack.

Strangely almost nobody run on V700. I heard saying that htey were difficult to tune right. Are the V700 also good for lapping and Solo I?

PL

 

I try to be serious about auto-x, been to 2 driving school this summer and more than 12 events. I am getting better at this but I am behind everyone else because of the street tires.

Hey but now the season is over, hell I have my snow tires on the car. Winter is comming soon Go karting time!

PL