so i just got back from lime rock in CT. It was great, nothing like driving on the streets at all. Definatly if you haven't get out and do this. Anyway i have a few questions from people who have been doing this for awhile. I have a 96 gsr that i'm trying to make into a threat on the track but maintain it's stock look. So far the motor is stock, i've heard that it's better to learn on a slower car then to go out in a F1 car and try to improve. I have replaced most of the suspension with tokico illumas and had the car corner balanced and performance aligned. 0 camber and toe in the rear with .5 toe out in the front and -1 camber. I mostly do auto-x events and i was concerned with tire wear so i went conservitive with the camber. Next summer i'll step it up to -2 in the front and maybe .5 in the back. (suggestions?) I have a 22mm sway bar in the rear and a strut tower bar. New upper and lower control arms all the way around and urythane bushings. Brembo slotted OEM rotors and hawk hps pads. A few things i noticed on the track, if anyone is familiar with lime rock there is a long straight going into "big bend" its a medium speed 180 sweeper. Anyway i was getting serious brake fade during the sessions, is this cuz i'm running stock fluid? Also i think i need a bigger bite on the back, i was thinking to upgrading to HP+'s in the rear next summer. Also, i setup for understeer because this was my first track event. i was running 40 in the front and 35 in the rear. I also had my suspension set to max stiffness in the back and one of max in the front. Next time i'm looking to bring more oversteer out in the car. Anyone have a good suggestion on starting tire pressure for 16'' rims kumo esctas spt's or similar tire? Last concern was beating up on the car, i was wondering if other people take this into consideration while they were out there. I could take this corner flat out but i would hit a bump and bottom out the suspension if i tapped the brakes i could pass inside the bump. Is should i not be consered and go for the time or is it cool to try to save the car for another day

 

Brakes, could be a lot of things, fluid is a possibility, or you need a better pad. Was your pedal still stiff, like you were pushing and not stopping, but had a good pedal?

There is nothing wrong with saving your car. Your out there to learn, and have fun. If it is a dedicated track car, then i say beat the hell out of it, but if it's your daily driver too, why destroy your car for a couple of seconds.

I don't know my exact specs, but i run toe pretty much zero, and some camber, but not a lot since i'm on khumo ecsta 712's. I typicaly go 40 front and 45 rear, with my suspension at full stiff all around. I have tein ss i think they are, and the car is some what loose, but very predictable and controlable. You'll just have to start tweaking and learning what it does, don't be afraid to change between sessions and figure out what different settings do. I know if i ran with soft suspension my car was very twitch.

 

Started off stiff and as i was stopping i would have to keep adding pressure to keep the same stopping rate. For what's its worth to anyone it was a decent setup for auto-x but i wasn't impressed with brakes on the track. But they did stop me all day long.

 

I'd get a lot more negative camber in there... maybe -1.5 F and -1 R, though even that is very conservative. Toe is what causes the majority of excess tire wear, not camber. I daily drove my GS-R for a year running -2F and -1.5R without any tire wear problems.

You should definitely change your brake fluid... stock fluid is not suitable for the track. At the least go with Valvoline Syn Power because it's cheap and easy to find. You probably don't need anything bigger, but you'll get better braking with different pads like Cobalt GT-Sports. Using the blank Brembo or Durolast rotors from Autozone is fine too... slotted isn't necessary.

 

why isn't slotted necessary?? i was going to go with a brembo hight temp fluid. I will try doing that before my next event. there was a good thread in here on how to dIY. I don't know if i'll get on a track again this summer, but deff. more auto-x.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Anyway i was getting serious brake fade during the sessions, is this cuz i'm running stock fluid? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Someone who is just starting out with HPDE and learning how to drive is simply going to over use the brakes.

We all did it, and you're going to do it, too, and that's what's happening to your brakes, in all likelihood.

When you're farther along in your driving, and you've learned how to compress brake zones and trust your tyres and brakes as you should, you will be using your brakes a lot less even though you will be using much higher G's to stop. When you're father along, you will be surprised how fast you'll be able to go and still have full confidence in your brakes.

Certainly, switch to a higher temperature brake fluid like Motul or ATE Super Blue, or anything like that. Maybe switch to a brake pad that's a little more aggressive than stock, like Cobalt Friction GT Sports or anything like that.

But do <u>not</u> waste money on slotted rotors or expensive suspension alterations, IMHO.

Wait until you are farther along and you have learned more about driving in general and about the dynamics of your vehicle specifically. You really should be farther along in your driving before you know exactly what it is you want to change about your car. Right now, IMHO, you probably do not know your car's current dynamics well enough to even be sure what it is that <u>you</u> want to change.

We can tell you about what we've done ourselves, but I think the money's better spent learning how to drive better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Certainly, switch to a higher temperature brake fluid like Motul or ATE Super Blue, or anything like that. Maybe switch to a brake pad that's a little more aggressive than stock, like Cobalt Friction GT Sports or anything like that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What he said.

Get some good fluid (I use GS610...) and FLUSH the system. You might also consider just skipping the intermediate compounds and going to a ful race pad like Hawk Blue, Portfield R-4, etc. Take street pads with you and change'em at the track for the drive home. I ran the Porterfield R-4 compound with good fluid and no other mods and was simply delighted with the braking performance. If you're willing to swap out the pads for an event, there's no reason not to step up to a race pad.

Just don't forget the fluid. If you did nothing else, that would be the thing to change.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so i just got back from lime rock in CT. It was great, nothing like driving on the streets at all. Definatly if you haven't get out and do this. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Great... glad you had a good time

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Anyway i have a few questions from people who have been doing this for awhile. I have a 96 gsr that i'm trying to make into a threat on the track but maintain it's stock look. So far the motor is stock, i've heard that it's better to learn on a slower car then to go out in a F1 car and try to improve.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, don't mess with a wonderfully engineered vechicle and engine

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have replaced most of the suspension with tokico illumas

I hope you replaced all four dampers

[QUOTE=SleeperGSR]
and had the car corner balanced and performance aligned. 0 camber and toe in the rear with .5 toe out in the front and -1 camber. I mostly do auto-x events and i was concerned with tire wear so i went conservitive with the camber. Next summer i'll step it up to -2 in the front and maybe .5 in the back. (suggestions?)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is .5 in degrees? I hope so.. I usually run 1/8" of toe out in the front and 0 toe in the rear

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Anyway i was getting serious brake fade during the sessions, is this cuz i'm running stock fluid? Also i think i need a bigger bite on the back, i was thinking to upgrading to HP+'s in the rear next summer. Also, i setup for understeer because this was my first track event. i was running 40 in the front and 35 in the rear. I also had my suspension set to max stiffness in the back and one of max in the front. Next time i'm looking to bring more oversteer out in the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I run Motul Brake fluid... I like it. I have run Porterfields R-4 and R-4S on the track... I also have some Hawk Blues that I am looking forward to trying out.

Have you tried disconnecting the front sway bar?
Have you tried leaving your front bar on and running the front shocks on full soft?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Last concern was beating up on the car, i was wondering if other people take this into consideration while they were out there. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Absolutely! Especially if have a 300 mile long trip home that I have to drive in that car. I make it a point to avoid off track excursions.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I could take this corner flat out but i would hit a bump and bottom out the suspension if i tapped the brakes i could pass inside the bump. Is should i not be consered and go for the time or is it cool to try to save the car for another day</TD></TR></TABLE>

Unless your racing for time or position , I would not subject your car to uncessary hurt. Since you said you were HDPE and not Time trial, I would take it easy through there.

 

thanks everyone for the advise. crazydave i misstook .5 degree for 1/8'' that's what i'm running also. The suspension was a full coilover setup- actually very good on the track and auto-x, i think i bottom out on the road alot tho even at full stiff setting. George i've been building up to my first track day, i've been doing auto-x for 5 years pretty agressively, i decided to step it up. I'd like to think i know a little about car control also. I'm no pro, but i do understand under/oversteer at turn in and turn out, and other aspects of handling and braking. While i'm not a pro yet i can dectect some of the more obvious flaws in the car. And wont the slotted have a longer life due to the high performance application. You're telling me not to get them, but i rather get them and not destroy a stock pair. I hate to abuse a car, and i feel like i would just be destroying stock rotors. anyway thanks for the input more is appreciated.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> And wont the slotted have a longer life due to the high performance application. You're telling me not to get them, but i rather get them and not destroy a stock pair. I hate to abuse a car, and i feel like i would just be destroying stock rotors. anyway thanks for the input more is appreciated. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Why destroy expensive rotors when you can destroy $15 autozone rotors?

how low is you car.. you might be hitting your bump stops... do you know what spring rates you are running?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crazydave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why destroy expensive rotors when you can destroy $15 autozone rotors?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont get to the track that much and i have a better chance of not destroying the slotted rotors. I've had stock one heat fracture just from driving hard on the road. I've had great luck with the brembos so far they are not warped and they are holding up

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I dont get to the track that much and i have a better chance of not destroying the slotted rotors. I've had stock one heat fracture just from driving hard on the road. I've had great luck with the brembos so far they are not warped and they are holding up</TD></TR></TABLE>


Street driving should not crack rotors, even so...
autozone rotors FTMFW

 

Skip the slotted rotors. For what it's worth, in SCCA's Improved Touring category you are not allowed to use slotted rotors - they must be OEM.

Flushing your brake system with ATE / Superblue would be a good idea. I really like these fluids since they come in two colors making flushing the system very easy. It is inexpensive ($15), and the Lime Rock (and many other tracks) sell it.

[quote]is simply going to over use the brakes.[quote]
Exactly. Lime Rock is very, very easy on brakes. Once you become more comfortable, you'll find that you can carry a fair amount of speed through big bend.

Attend some SCCA races and learn as much as possible. One of my friends races a GSR - he'd probably be able to give you some very good advice on car set up. We'll be at LRP on July 4th. I also missed you by a day - I was there on Sat. with SCDA.

 

granracing you ever go to an auto-x with CART?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jeff_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...You should definitely change your brake fluid... stock fluid is not suitable for the track. At the least go with Valvoline Syn Power because it's cheap and easy to find.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just make sure it doesn't contain silicone. I'm not sure, but I suspect it does. Here's a snippet from my book:

The big surprise to me was how universally disliked silicone brake fluid is, at least when used on track. I heard stories of otherwise leak-free systems developing leaks (which mine did), a perpetually soft brake pedal (which I had), and a brake pedal that went to the floor after hard use, even after the car cooled off (my problem, too).

Regarding that last statement. I had just finished an HPDE event for the day. The car had cooled off for a couple hours before I went to load it on the trailer. When I got in, the brake pedal went completely to the floor. I pumped it a couple times and then it was "fine". Uh huh. I had enough of the stuff and replaced it with Ford PM-1. Cheap, easy to find, and hasn't had a problem since. Other good ones are ATE Superblue and Castrol LMA.

Search around on here, there's a couple "What brake fluid to use" threads. For me personally, I won't use Valvoline Syn Power again. Maybe for my street car, but not for the track. BTW, there's a very good reason to use silicone brake fluid in your street car - it doesn't destroy the paint if you spill a little on it. But it ain't going in my track car!

 

[QUOTE=granracing]Skip the slotted rotors. For what it's worth, in SCCA's Improved Touring category you are not allowed to use slotted rotors - they must be OEM.

Flushing your brake system with ATE / Superblue would be a good idea. I really like these fluids since they come in two colors making flushing the system very easy. It is inexpensive ($15), and the Lime Rock (and many other tracks) sell it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is simply going to over use the brakes.[quote]
Exactly. Lime Rock is very, very easy on brakes. Once you become more comfortable, you'll find that you can carry a fair amount of speed through big bend.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not really concerned with scca rules just yet. I'm trying not to replace my rotors every summer. I understand they are more expensive, but arn't they designed for a more of a racing application? I want something that is going to hold up to a few events and increase performance, which they do correct?

Also, thanks for the tip. Big bend was a tough corner for me to get and the left after. Seemed like the rest of the track was just a straight till you had to brake for big bend again. And i def. was on the brakes too much.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I understand they are more expensive, but arn't they designed for a more of a racing application? I want something that is going to hold up to a few events and increase performance, which they do correct? </TD></TR></TABLE>

No and no

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you ever go to an auto-x with CART?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I have in the past. I also ran with FCSCC but they've moved locations to the eastern part of CT.

Sorry, the SCCA reference wasn't meaning to say you'd be concerned with what their rules are, but to kinda let you know that race prepared cars (other GSRs for that matter) use regular rotors and they hold up great. I didn't really word that clearly.

Changing the front brake pads - I'm a huge Carbotech fan - would be a much better investment than slotted rotors. I used to run cross drilled rotors when I started out, so I know where you're coming from.

I probably replace my rotors every other year, and brake pads once a year if that.

For big bend, you'll find there are a few different lines in that section. After you gain some more experience, you can experiment and see which works best for you and your car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I mostly do auto-x events and i was concerned with tire wear so i went conservitive with the camber. </TD></TR></TABLE>

When I first started HPDEs, I used to run little camber and it was causing too much front outer tire wear with a FWD and no LSD. I realize now that my inexperienced driving was a little too aggressive on turns and hurting the tires. And -2.5 didn't cause too much inner tire wear on street driving.

 

i believe there is a great thread somewhere about slotted rotors. they were originally designed to release gases created by brake pads from certain materials in the pads that are no longer used. But the appearance look of slotted rotors stayed, and have been marketed so that people think they need them.

i think that is what i read somewhere just trying to provide a reason above the "cost" of using autozone blanks, a functional reason.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fatalman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i believe there is a great thread somewhere about slotted rotors. they were originally designed to release gases created by brake pads from certain materials in the pads that are no longer used. But the appearance look of slotted rotors stayed, and have been marketed so that people think they need them.

i think that is what i read somewhere just trying to provide a reason above the "cost" of using autozone blanks, a functional reason.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks man, appreciate the info. Looking like i'll be going back to OEM rotors next. However, they are still selling cars with slotted rotors, like the evo VIII. There has to be some bennifit to using them, they are on many high performance cars.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, I have in the past. I also ran with FCSCC but they've moved locations to the eastern part of CT.

Sorry, the SCCA reference wasn't meaning to say you'd be concerned with what their rules are, but to kinda let you know that race prepared cars (other GSRs for that matter) use regular rotors and they hold up great. I didn't really word that clearly.

Changing the front brake pads - I'm a huge Carbotech fan - would be a much better investment than slotted rotors. I used to run cross drilled rotors when I started out, so I know where you're coming from.

I probably replace my rotors every other year, and brake pads once a year if that.

For big bend, you'll find there are a few different lines in that section. After you gain some more experience, you can experiment and see which works best for you and your car. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I appreciate the info on the rules, eventually i will get there. I will probably return to OEM rotors next time i replace them. I wish I could get a little more stopping power, it really didn't feel like i could slow the car down enough when i wanted to. Also, all big brake upgrades are either slotted or drilled or both, there has to be some benifit? When i was researching there alot of info not recomending drilled for auto-x and track so i went with slotted. Anyway, yeah i think i know what you are talking about at big bend, i almost seemed to be stuck between gears. It seems to tighten at the exit and i would always be in the wrong spot, i'll keep practicing. Thanks again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fatalman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> But the appearance look of slotted rotors stayed, and have been marketed so that people think they need them.</TD></TR></TABLE>


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thanks man, appreciate the info. Looking like i'll be going back to OEM rotors next. However, they are still selling cars with slotted rotors, like the evo VIII. There has to be some bennifit to using them, they are on many high performance cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

In my opinion at Limerock only place you have to use full braking will be front straigt going into big bend and use trail braking hitting double apexing through the corner. Rest of the way some tapping or let off throttle should do fine depends on your tire, sus set up and of course your driving ability.

If you had brake fading issues.. it's more than likely to be your pads.
I use HP+ and brembo blanks (F+R) never had an issue of fadding at Limerock.
Perhaps brake fluid got boiled too. I also use motul rbf 600 it works great.
Strongly recommend that you should consider using at least HP+ on track purpose.

And wow 40 psi in F and 35 in R?
last time I went there was in June 9th and 10th temp. was around 89.
I put 30 in F and 32 in R and never experienced roll over issues or anything actually my tires were very happy~ kumho MX screamming like a lil girl.

ah here are my set up for sus and tire.
205/50/15 kumho MX
12k F // 10k R
22mm R sway bar.
weight is 2503 lbs. with me in it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J.B. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And wow 40 psi in F and 35 in R?
last time I went there was in June 9th and 10th temp. was around 89.
I put 30 in F and 32 in R and never experienced roll over issues or anything actually my tires were very happy~ kumho MX screamming like a lil girl.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Was thinking the same, 40 and 35 are a bit high. I am down to running 28/30 in my Azenis.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry, the SCCA reference wasn't meaning to say you'd be concerned with what their rules are, but to kinda let you know that race prepared cars (other GSRs for that matter) use regular rotors and they hold up great. I didn't really word that clearly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Even better, in H1 (and old HU) I was allowed to run slotted or drilled rotors, but I didn't and don't. Fronts I always run solid, they work fine and aren't pricey.

I run drilled rears because I'm overweight and they last multiple years of track driving.