Id agree that the le mans probably have less gentlemen racers, after all it is primarilly factory money, bigger sponsorships. Bragging rights etc.
But open wheel cars... Indy lights and Indy car have most of their field are people who have the money and not necessarilly the talent.
Just sift through the standings & google the unknowns and see who have real experience and those who are paying for their rides.
Its more than half.
WC... as Dave Gran pointed out there is a great number of pay to drive gentlemen racers than pro drivers.
so I think the arguement goes on.

 

Max the Axe, Jorg bergmister, Lucas Luhr, Christophe Bouchut, João Barbosa, Marino Franchitti, Dirk Mueller, Jan Magnussen, Dirk Werner, Wolf Henzler, Jaime Melo, Olivier Beretta, Augusto Farfus, Andy Priaulx,

A few aren't from Europe but they all are foreign drivers who get paid to come out and race.

I am sure there are more, but that's all i could come up with off the top of my head.

 

wont address open wheel because that isn't even racing.

But over the WC paddock I can't even think of any Europeans who race in the series??

And in GA I think maybe one or two of the guys guys from Europe are pay to play. And maybe one or two of the other foreigner drivers are pay to play.

 

Its the open wheel part I was focused on.
In checking the racing history of alot of the Indy type leagues drivers, you dont see a long history of karting on up through the ranks if you will.
GA has its share of pay to play drivers not just europeans drivers.

 

And add station working to the list too. If I'm not racing, I love being in the turns flagging.

 

There are plenty of gentlemen racers here, yes. It fills our fields, makes Grand-Am exciting. Racing in Europe is huge. Paychecks are rare to be handed out. That is what I said. This is why Europeans come here to race-- the better likelihood of seeing a paycheck. Also, as I said, many gentleman racers here are looking to make racing a profession. Your argument is like saying America puts too many people in college...

What is a hired gun if not someone who is getting paid to drive? Therefore, he came to the U.S., is bettering his career, and making a living racing cars. I can give you a list of people that I know personally that have moved from their home countries to race here full time and make a living, if you'd like. I could also give you a list of people that have made a living racing only here in the U.S. as U.S. citizens, if you like-- going from gentleman driver to paid professional. If you notice in Europe, its the same drivers in almost all the major series where you'd assume drivers are getting paid (besides F1). WTCC, BTCC, FIA GT, LMS, etc... many of the same drivers. If you think the guys coming up through the ranks looking at these series, including F1, are getting paid, you're probably wrong.

My management agency works with plenty of European and Australian drivers, most of them see their first paycheck racing here in one of our bigger races like 24H of Daytona, 12H of Sebring, etc. I also work at a racing school where we get plenty of foreign racers looking to learn to race here. I have a fair amount of experience when it comes to the goal and execution of getting paid in this sport. I'll tell you it isn't easy. 0.5% of the people that race make a living doing it. However, that percentage is higher here than in Europe, I'm quite confident.

 

So then, what is the difference between a club racer and a "pro" racer, since the jump can be made anytime. In fact there is some guys out there that have run in professional series and now they are running at club level. Are they considered amateur racers or just professional racers racing at club level. And if they are professionals in the club then the club racers can be considered professionals with no budget.
This is very confusing, why not just consider everyone that straps his or herself into a race car and races in a sanctioned race just a race car driver and let their budget determine what series they race.
So now we are all race car drivers , no more pro, or gentleman, or club racer, just drivers. The size of the series or the power of the car does not determine how good of a race car driver you are.

 

This all comes from the marketing of NASCAR. I know it's a completely different world, but look at the "Pro" drivers in that world. Most of them have multimillion $ houses, tons of cars, and so forth. Look at the payouts in the series. First can get up to $150k and 43 (last) can still get in the $80-$90K range. Then the sponsorships money on top of that. The driver's don't do any of that work, the team managers do. The driver's just work out, and show up to promote, test, and race the car.

Hell I know a few road runner class circle track racers (and I assume the rest of them too) who race for free (break even) after sponsorships. They just have to put the time in to maintaining their car.

Americans just assume that "pros" in other racing leagues make that kind of money. I'll probably move up to club level in the next couple years because that's what kind of budget I'll have.

I agree with lwnslw, there's that comraderie that comes with the "racecar driver". Being Pro or gentlemen doesn't make you any less of a racecar driver.

I've heard a few people (fans) who complain because somebody has a slightly slower car and he's still on track. I'm quickly to reply, "He's still out there racing. He may not be the fastest car or even competitive, but he's still out there doing what he loves. and that's all that matters to him."

 

The tread has me lost. What is the definition of a "gentlemen racer".

 

Dave Grans article explains it best.


I agree with you Marcel..
We race.. we are racers!

 

are we trying to just dumb it down for no reason? i think everyone here understands what a professional driver is, but it seems as if you are trying confuse the meaning of the words here. i will use rafa matos for the moment, he is driving a gt car now. he did drive indycars in previous years, so is he still an indycar driver? no, he is not. so, if an ex pro driver now races club events, is he still a pro driver? the answer is no, but he still races because he enjoys the sport as do most of us. that is why we are here.


true, it doesn't make you any less of a race car driver. but, being pro might mean you could be doing what you want "for a living". or in this case/thread the kent family still works to support the sport in which they love.

 

Not trying to confuse the meaning of the words. Let me see if I can explain my opinion.
A pro driver gets paid to race. At least we understand that. And not everyone has the luck to get paid. The majority pays to drive.
The problem is with the general public "spectators" and some of us. They are not going to pay to go see a bunch of gentleman racers or club racers, even if the racing is more intense and the races more exciting. That is why the media attaches the title "professional driver". Then we all go and pay.
The title of the tread is "The difference between a pro driver and you!" which to me it means that there is people out there that think a pro driver is better than anyone else. Like I said before, I know guys that will run circles around some pro drivers.
And that is where I have to try to express my opinion.
A pro driver is not better than anyone else, like you said , he gets paid to drive and not everyone is lucky to do that.
That is what I'm trying to clarify, we are all racers, getting paid or not, but there is people out there that think that just because there is a title before the "driver" it gets classified different.

 

The difference between a pro driver and me should be his lap times. Good Luck.

 

I think a pro racer versus an amateur racer is not a paycheck, but a lifestyle. My girlfriend had to jump through hoops to get her real estate broker license without a sales person license first so she can work for her mom (one of the most successful in the greater area). She is not getting a paycheck-- her company gets most of it first to cover the training. Therefore, she is not getting paid. Does this make her an "amateur real estate agent"? Maybe a "gentleman broker"? No. She is pursuing it as a career, therefore it is.

I was considered pro before I was handed a paycheck by many people. I dropped everything to go racing and PURSUED IT AS A CAREER. An amateur is a doctor or a carpenter or anything else, making a living that way, putting extra cash into racing, not the other way around. It doesn't matter which way the money flows, as long as the dedication exists to make a career of racing.

 

I think this sums it up well...and if you have the courage to live on the average pro racer salary with the attendant risks, etc (loosing your ride at a moments notice etc)...more power to you!!

 

The way I look at a professional racer is someone who earns their living by racing cars. Even those drivers who make the sacrifies, dedicate their lives to the sport, possibly get a free ride haven't made it as a Pro Racer IMO.

Then I have different levels of respect for driver talent. I watch Will Power and what he does out on track and have a huge appreciation for what he does. There are other drivers out there who are getting paid and I strongly question their abilities.

I do give the drivers who dedicate their lives to trying to make it pro. Like many things, it looks wonderful from the other side but it's not a simple life which doesn't require a lot of sacrifices. More than I'm willing to accept.

 

Interesting topic. I'm new to this place but as a racer reading this, it really brought up a lot of feelings and obstacles/realities i've had to face/overcome. I've always been addicted to motorsports from a very early age but never had some of the resources or contacts others do; no biggie not everyone is born equal. But that reality has smacked me in the face many times and im at a point where I don't know if professional racing will ever be a reality for me as i'm sure many others have realized.

After many years of figuring out what makes racing tick on the business side of things i've had to face some unsettling realities. Its frustrating when I go to Petit Le Mans and watch these million dollar GT cars braking into 10a and hearing the rpms drop and then zing back up because the pilot hasn't the slightest clue how to heal toe downshift.

Aside from a few VERY rare exceptions pretty much every guy trying to break into racing has wealthy parents. Just a reality. Either they just pay their kid's racing or they have a big company that indirectly "funds" their racing by marketing/comission/endorsement deals. So yes you're "sponsored" and getting a check but they're still in one way or another paying to drive. They wouldn't be where they are if their parents didn't own a winery for example EVEN though they are fantastic behind the wheel of a race car.

I have huge respect for guys like Randy Pobst and Boris Said who sacrificed everything, their cars, their wives, their houses, their lives to sleep out of their race cars at tracks until they got noticed. Don't tell me you've sacrificed everything to be a driver when you still live on a beach front condo in San Diego subsidized by your parents while you devote all your time to racing because you have no full time job. (this sounds like a particular case but its one of MANY like it).

Somehow despite the economic conditions we face today and despite the economics of motorsport some get lucky and find a big nut once in a while that leads them down the right path and opens doors. Mike Skeen is a good example of that. Great success story and I hope nothing but great things for him.

Lyonel Kent, even though I don't know him, has done that. What seperates "you" or I from a pro driver is that a pro driver has to be good at EVERYTHING. Not just driving, but marketing, branding, testing, sponsor hunting, media relations, a good public speaker, fit and strong, the whole package. There isn't a plethora of those guys in racing in my opinion. Sometimes I wish racing was simpler, like it used to be. If you were fast, somebody would notice and pick you up if you did it long enough. Now you could be the reincarnation of Ayrton Senna and you'd still be up **** creek without a paddle unless you have an uncle that knows a guy or a trust fund hidden somewhere.


Edit: That Scott Tucker thing is unbelievable btw omg. I was watching him during Petit and had no idea.

 

I know George Follmer pretty well (he's now a real estate agent here locally). I've talked to him many times over the past few years.

He talks about how racing is completely different from what it is now (simpler, like NoLift mentions). Back then, there were the guys that were good at any form of racing. There weren't many real "specialists" like there are now. Back then, it was just a job, and you didn't just race in one series.

 

Okay, this bitterness toward the sport has to be corrected a little bit. These connections that people speak of-- the "knowing someone who knows somebody" are easily accomplished by taking the time to go to the track, meet some people, make some friends, learn some things. There is no magic button that gives you contacts. I spend MOST of my time meeting people, letting them put my face to my and name and my name to my stats. This is how I get rides and a reputation as someone worth a paycheck.

My parents did pay for me to go racing, but it was out of my college fund, and nothing more. I got very lucky earning a paycheck when I did since we had expended my college savings. I can no longer pay for rides as I used to, but the rides we bought were what got me where I am. What is the difference between this sport doing what it does and a future football star paying to go to a good football college?

The view of a professional only being one that gets paid reduces the number of professionals to maybe 100-200 internationally. Paychecks are extremely rare and I don't think people realize it. If a sponsor is paying for a ride, maybe guys, even Randy Pobst, are very happy to just drive for free. Endorsements are rare and rarely pay well unless you're in NASCAR or Indy. My view of a professional still stands: the person who is devoting his/her life to the sport, paycheck or not, but with the aspiration to make it a living is a professional. If you classify one as being someone making money, then there are few professional series left in this country-- any country for that matter. Most fields are peppered (some heavier than others) with people either paying to drive or breaking even with perks like winnings and small contingency on the side.

I don't want to see this sport get a dirty name by people stating things disrespectfully. There will always be rich people in every sport, every business, everyTHING in the world that can and will buy their way in. Teams wouldn't start at all without them-- it takes a rich guy to want to go racing to put anything together. Racing teams rarely MAKE money, even with sponsorship. There are exceptions of course, but most often in NASCAR and Indy. Anybody can get into this sport, anybody with the will to make it happen can go pro racing. Of the people that will try, few of them will get a paycheck fat enough to pad their pocket.

 

Well said Matt.

I think the arguement is now officially over.

 

I agree with the majority of what you said Matt. We are all shaped by our experiences so our perceptions and opinions will obviously differ. What I stated is just what i've seen. Coming from someone that would love to be banging fenders with you as much as the next guy (no that doesn't sound gay at all!) I can appreciate how you got to where you are, even though thats beside the fact. Hope you guys kill it in 2012. Tell John Edwards the next time he has to go to the lou during a pit stop, you're jumping in the car lol.

 

I agree with everything you said except the highlighted part.

Most college football "stars" go to college for free. They are called scholorships. [sarcasm]Heck, some teachers will even do your homework for you. [/sarcasm]

I'm perfectly fine living paycheck to paycheck, building my car as a I go along. Waiting for the next free (no bills come out of it) paycheck to order parts. It make me appreciate more of what I have. I do volunteer work at the track all the time, just to promote my autocross club mostly.

If the comment was directed towards "me knowing George Follmer", he's a regular customer at the dealership, and I've worked on his F-150 many times. He actually doesn't like to be put on a pedestal, but he does like to share stories.

 

you have great parents, trusting, willing. I think it's awesome. As much as I love motorsports there is no way I'm handing 300,000 to my daughter to go racing. She decides to do something like that, at the very least she is paying my tax penalty! Seriosuly, well-said, and I hope your dream pans out. You are dedicated, talented and seemingly level-headed. You will have a better chance than many.

 

My opinion of a the difference.


Pro Racer= It's there job to show up to race tracks and race, they collect a pay check from it. There has been numerous names listed before.


Gentlemen drivers/Pay to Play= The guys who are cutting checks out of there business, Dad's, Trust fund, account to pay for there ride.

Matt feels that there is 2 different groups of people in the Gentlemen drivers/pay to play.

1.) a group that is trying to become pro racers

2.) a group who has the money and wants to race, but isn't chasing the pro racer status.


IMO there is no difference between the two.


In reality though there isn't much difference between GA/WC and NASA/SCCA with regards to what you "need" to get in. I'd say its MUCH harder to get a license with nasa/scca then it is with WC/GA. Other then that it is about how much $$/time your willing to spend.

Also the racing IS DIFFERENT. GA/WC will eat most drivers for breakfast from NASA/SCCA. And it isn't based on speed/driving ability. It's an attitude/different mind set. And it's really hard to describe.

I feel that is what makes it different.

I've seen several of the very fast, national championship NASA/SCCA, simply get worked over and abused out on track.

To the regulars/front runners in WC/GA these guys (and gals) ^^ are some no name driver and they will LEAN on them, use them for brake markers and just all around ROUGH them up.

Here is a Video that describes what Im talking about.

http://vimeo.com/7425085

Graham's one of the flat out fastest guys i know, a great racer. That was his first step into the ring with "the big boys", and well... watch it.

 

Regaridng the "working over and abusing"...I think it just comes down to a necessary level of aggression to match the high stakes...no one is going to give any quarter...that's why you see so many crashes at that level, nasty abusive ones, and aggressive and intentional ones sometimes. I can compare it to Road Cycling, which I did at a very competitive level for 10 years. When you are a Cat 4 rider there is a lot of cruising in the pack, politeness, wheel sucking. Cat 1/2/pro races are all out war. Brutal pace, aggressive teamwork, very physical riding in criteriums...because..the stakes are higher, pure and simple, IMHO...but this is evolving into another topic...my apologies.