water/methanol injection!
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From: Newark, DE
Re: (96 GSR-T)
The only downside to running a mist kit (shooting it into the intake tract) is you do not get even distribution of the mixture in the cylinders, like shooting a dry shot of nitrous, the last cylinder does not get as much as the ones before it. The best way would be to run a complete standalone system with 4 extra injectors, an anodized fuel rail, a seperate fuel cell and different fuel lines, basically a direct port setup for alcohol.
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From: missouri
Re: (96 GSR-T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It still gets the mix, just not evenly over every cylinder when you spray it, same thing happens with dry nitrous.</TD></TR></TABLE>
right, its not evenly but is it enough?
right, its not evenly but is it enough?
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Re: (96 GSR-T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only downside to running a mist kit (shooting it into the intake tract) is you do not get even distribution of the mixture in the cylinders, like shooting a dry shot of nitrous, the last cylinder does not get as much as the ones before it. The best way would be to run a complete standalone system with 4 extra injectors, an anodized fuel rail, a seperate fuel cell and different fuel lines, basically a direct port setup for alcohol.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Still have to drain the cell if the car is not going to be driven every day and need to deal with the PITA of controlling said injectors.
We're running an FJO meth injection kit on a buddies D-series hitting the dyno with it this weekend hopefully. 75.5mm 10:1 sleeved Y8 with a ported head, big zex cam, sheetmetal intake, AEM EMS, T3/60-1 and 20-25 psi on pump gas
Still have to drain the cell if the car is not going to be driven every day and need to deal with the PITA of controlling said injectors.
We're running an FJO meth injection kit on a buddies D-series hitting the dyno with it this weekend hopefully. 75.5mm 10:1 sleeved Y8 with a ported head, big zex cam, sheetmetal intake, AEM EMS, T3/60-1 and 20-25 psi on pump gas
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From: ca
Re: (96 GSR-T)
You could search homemadeturbo.com, there are some helpful and informative posts on there about how water (or alc.) injection works, which kits are decent, etc.. J Davis wrote some pages on there i believe.
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From: 559, CA
Re: (96 GSR-T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AbitAvenger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.coolingmist.com/instructions.aspx
alot of people run it with a boost activated switch ie. over 5lbs it will activate</TD></TR></TABLE>mine was activated via Hondata's n2o output. it wasn't on till i hit 10lbs of boost AND more than 80% throttle.
injector duty cycle went way down, so i technically had more to tune with. i ws only using meth, and always left it full for daily driving. it has the fluid level uprgrade switch so i would know if it was low.
alot of people run it with a boost activated switch ie. over 5lbs it will activate</TD></TR></TABLE>mine was activated via Hondata's n2o output. it wasn't on till i hit 10lbs of boost AND more than 80% throttle.
injector duty cycle went way down, so i technically had more to tune with. i ws only using meth, and always left it full for daily driving. it has the fluid level uprgrade switch so i would know if it was low.
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: (96 GSR-T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only downside to running a mist kit (shooting it into the intake tract) is you do not get even distribution of the mixture in the cylinders, like shooting a dry shot of nitrous, the last cylinder does not get as much as the ones before it. The best way would be to run a complete standalone system with 4 extra injectors, an anodized fuel rail, a seperate fuel cell and different fuel lines, basically a direct port setup for alcohol.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It still gets the mix, just not evenly over every cylinder when you spray it, same thing happens with dry nitrous.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's not as bad as everything makes it out to be... In fact, uneven water distribution would also mean uneven air distribution. As we all know, air is what allows more power, and quite frankly, lesser air means lesser power, which in turn would also require lesser "water" as an anti-detonant
A direct port setup has its advantages... Not only because of better distribution, but more precise control of the water flow rates. A direct port setup could be configured by pulse width matching the injectors, so water could be smoothly introduced into the engine without any hestitation of bogging.
The ghetto method to deliver a smoother WI engagement is multi-stage. Small jets come first, say at 5 psi, and the the larger jets come in at above 20 psi. A good tuner could dial out some fuel and bump up the timing to compensate for WI engagement. It should be tuned to wherever and whenever the engine appears to be detonating or had to pull too much timing to compensate for heat, detonation, etc
I like water injection, but I don't like to fully depend on it. It should be used as a safety tool, and adds buffer room when sometimes things just doesn't keep up the way it should (pump starts falling behing, car leans out unexpectedly, etc...) Most street cars love WI because of this added safety. Especially when you are planning on pushing big numbers on pump gas, it is a good move to tune the engine close to detonation limit on gas only, but then add water injection and a little tuning to add safety but at similar power levels. You can have the choice to run even more boost and more timing to actually gain power, but once you reach close to detonation limit again (with water injection this time), the engine would be toast if the water injection systems fails to keep up for whatever reason.
I have my water injection engaged at above 8 psi, 6000+ RPM and more than 50% throttle. Pump and solenoids are controlled by AEM EMS. It is only under peak conditions that detonation happens (usually approaching peak HP and peak TQ, and a bit before peak boost), so you can actually get away with a single stage system.
Remember WI is great as a safety add-on, so try to keep the system as simple as possible. The last thing you want is fancy solenoids, switches, and sensors. My system consists of a Coolingmist 100 PSI pump, McMaster solenoid, and stainless steel McMaster water nozzles. With the AEM EMS controlling everything, the system is a simple system. All the hoses and lines should be done just like the attention you'd pay to oil lines or fuel lines... Although it is water/meth, you want everything just as reliable as the fuel system because it is just as important for safe engine operation!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It still gets the mix, just not evenly over every cylinder when you spray it, same thing happens with dry nitrous.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's not as bad as everything makes it out to be... In fact, uneven water distribution would also mean uneven air distribution. As we all know, air is what allows more power, and quite frankly, lesser air means lesser power, which in turn would also require lesser "water" as an anti-detonant
A direct port setup has its advantages... Not only because of better distribution, but more precise control of the water flow rates. A direct port setup could be configured by pulse width matching the injectors, so water could be smoothly introduced into the engine without any hestitation of bogging.
The ghetto method to deliver a smoother WI engagement is multi-stage. Small jets come first, say at 5 psi, and the the larger jets come in at above 20 psi. A good tuner could dial out some fuel and bump up the timing to compensate for WI engagement. It should be tuned to wherever and whenever the engine appears to be detonating or had to pull too much timing to compensate for heat, detonation, etc
I like water injection, but I don't like to fully depend on it. It should be used as a safety tool, and adds buffer room when sometimes things just doesn't keep up the way it should (pump starts falling behing, car leans out unexpectedly, etc...) Most street cars love WI because of this added safety. Especially when you are planning on pushing big numbers on pump gas, it is a good move to tune the engine close to detonation limit on gas only, but then add water injection and a little tuning to add safety but at similar power levels. You can have the choice to run even more boost and more timing to actually gain power, but once you reach close to detonation limit again (with water injection this time), the engine would be toast if the water injection systems fails to keep up for whatever reason.
I have my water injection engaged at above 8 psi, 6000+ RPM and more than 50% throttle. Pump and solenoids are controlled by AEM EMS. It is only under peak conditions that detonation happens (usually approaching peak HP and peak TQ, and a bit before peak boost), so you can actually get away with a single stage system.
Remember WI is great as a safety add-on, so try to keep the system as simple as possible. The last thing you want is fancy solenoids, switches, and sensors. My system consists of a Coolingmist 100 PSI pump, McMaster solenoid, and stainless steel McMaster water nozzles. With the AEM EMS controlling everything, the system is a simple system. All the hoses and lines should be done just like the attention you'd pay to oil lines or fuel lines... Although it is water/meth, you want everything just as reliable as the fuel system because it is just as important for safe engine operation!
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From: Oregon City, OR, USA
Re: (Tony the Tiger)
I'm using the coolingmist setup on an H22 with 10:1 compression, S300, boost activated @ 10 lbs. Usually run 10 psi but turn up to 17 psi occasionally while driving. Engine is completely set up for boost - using a GT3076.
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From: Oregon City, OR, USA
Re: (Tony the Tiger)
I'm using the coolingmist setup on an H22 with 10:1 compression, S300, boost activated @ 10 lbs. Usually run 10 psi but turn up to 17 psi occasionally while driving. Engine is completely set up for boost - using a GT3076. 92 hatch.
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From: Newark, DE
Re: (Tony the Tiger)
Good info Tony 
You must have the old Coolingmist setup as they discontinued the 100psi setup and now the base setup has 150psi pump. And I never though about how the the fartest cylinder that gets less air will also get less Alk/Water mix.... but it makes sence. I plan to add a light somewhere on my gague pod that will light up when the pump is pumping as added insurance that its working when it is supposed to. If you dont mind me asking, what AFR is general to tune to with the mix? Is 12.5 a safe #, obviously you need to check for detonation but I am just looking for a place to start. I know straight alcohol is double what gas is ie. straight gas 12.0 AFR and straight alcohol 6.0 AFR .
You must have the old Coolingmist setup as they discontinued the 100psi setup and now the base setup has 150psi pump. And I never though about how the the fartest cylinder that gets less air will also get less Alk/Water mix.... but it makes sence. I plan to add a light somewhere on my gague pod that will light up when the pump is pumping as added insurance that its working when it is supposed to. If you dont mind me asking, what AFR is general to tune to with the mix? Is 12.5 a safe #, obviously you need to check for detonation but I am just looking for a place to start. I know straight alcohol is double what gas is ie. straight gas 12.0 AFR and straight alcohol 6.0 AFR .
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: (Tony the Tiger)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not as bad as everything makes it out to be... In fact, uneven water distribution would also mean uneven air distribution. </TD></TR></TABLE>
No, no... not true. The finely atomized water droplets can't navigate the tortuous path of the intake manifold, like air can, because these droplets have much more inertia. This water will impact and collect on the walls, usually at the back of the manifold - eventually this water will evaporate it's way in, but not when you needed it.
Hopefully I can make a simple example without being called a pr*ck. Imagine an air humidifier. Stick your hand in front of the mist (your hand is the back end of the manifold) - it gets wet. There you go. Same reason your fuel injectors get a straight shot in, and same reason single-nozzle wet nitrous systems don't work on injected setups.
But in practice, I'm not arguing that simple is better - I agree with you Tony that on a conservative injection setup, a little more water injection in this cylinder or that will make much of a difference, not like a difference in fuel will.
No, no... not true. The finely atomized water droplets can't navigate the tortuous path of the intake manifold, like air can, because these droplets have much more inertia. This water will impact and collect on the walls, usually at the back of the manifold - eventually this water will evaporate it's way in, but not when you needed it.
Hopefully I can make a simple example without being called a pr*ck. Imagine an air humidifier. Stick your hand in front of the mist (your hand is the back end of the manifold) - it gets wet. There you go. Same reason your fuel injectors get a straight shot in, and same reason single-nozzle wet nitrous systems don't work on injected setups.
But in practice, I'm not arguing that simple is better - I agree with you Tony that on a conservative injection setup, a little more water injection in this cylinder or that will make much of a difference, not like a difference in fuel will.
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From: Newark, DE
Re: (turncoat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turncoat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No, no... not true. The finely atomized water droplets can't navigate the tortuous path of the intake manifold, like air can, because these droplets have much more inertia. This water will impact and collect on the walls, usually at the back of the manifold - eventually this water will evaporate it's way in, but not when you needed it.
Hopefully I can make a simple example without being called a pr*ck. Imagine an air humidifier. Stick your hand in front of the mist (your hand is the back end of the manifold) - it gets wet. There you go. Same reason your fuel injectors get a straight shot in, and same reason single-nozzle wet nitrous systems don't work on injected setups.
But in practice, I'm not arguing that simple is better - I agree with you Tony that on a conservative injection setup, a little more water injection in this cylinder or that will make much of a difference, not like a difference in fuel will.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Do you think the Alcohol mix makes the water lighter/heavier causing it not to atomize on the walls but get sucked in? just a hunch
No, no... not true. The finely atomized water droplets can't navigate the tortuous path of the intake manifold, like air can, because these droplets have much more inertia. This water will impact and collect on the walls, usually at the back of the manifold - eventually this water will evaporate it's way in, but not when you needed it.
Hopefully I can make a simple example without being called a pr*ck. Imagine an air humidifier. Stick your hand in front of the mist (your hand is the back end of the manifold) - it gets wet. There you go. Same reason your fuel injectors get a straight shot in, and same reason single-nozzle wet nitrous systems don't work on injected setups.
But in practice, I'm not arguing that simple is better - I agree with you Tony that on a conservative injection setup, a little more water injection in this cylinder or that will make much of a difference, not like a difference in fuel will.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Do you think the Alcohol mix makes the water lighter/heavier causing it not to atomize on the walls but get sucked in? just a hunch
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: (96 GSR-T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you think the Alcohol mix makes the water lighter/heavier causing it not to atomize on the walls but get sucked in? just a hunch</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, for the most part, droplets are droplets, so it won't much difference what you are injecting so long as it is a liquid. It will still want to collect at any tortuous path (even your valves - notice how careful and sensitive fuel injector placement and angle is). Droplets have significant inertia, and can't totally behave like a gas, so they will impact and collect, but eventually evaporate or fall down due to gravity.
(well - maybe not true, water has a higher surface tension and should tend to collect droplets more due to hydrogen bonding or van der Waals forces, but methanol has good hydrogen bonding itself because it has the -OH group as well, blah, blah blah - nobody here cares to hear the Chem. Eng run his mouth).
What you need are droplets - liquid - so that when these droplets enter the combustion chamber, you can use the "heat of vaporization" required to boil these droplets in the combustion chamber to cool your combustion chamber. Also important to note you can use less water than methanol, water has ~2450 kJ/kg and methanol ~1150 kJ/kg, and also why BOTH of these are much better than using extra fuel (not sure on this one, but probably around 500 kJ/kg or less).
So by my rough calculation (and ignoring any heat of combustion), if you used water injection, and used 100 cc/min, you would have to use 210 cc/min of methanol to get the same cooling effect, or 490 cc/min extra fuel with no injection at all. Kinda puts it into perspective, eh?
Again, not arguing simple is better, I would not rush out and put extra injectors to control water injection, SIMPLE is better, listen to Tony. So long as you are cooling down the hottest cylinder as much as you needed to (usually #3 anyway), you have done the job.
Well, for the most part, droplets are droplets, so it won't much difference what you are injecting so long as it is a liquid. It will still want to collect at any tortuous path (even your valves - notice how careful and sensitive fuel injector placement and angle is). Droplets have significant inertia, and can't totally behave like a gas, so they will impact and collect, but eventually evaporate or fall down due to gravity.
(well - maybe not true, water has a higher surface tension and should tend to collect droplets more due to hydrogen bonding or van der Waals forces, but methanol has good hydrogen bonding itself because it has the -OH group as well, blah, blah blah - nobody here cares to hear the Chem. Eng run his mouth).
What you need are droplets - liquid - so that when these droplets enter the combustion chamber, you can use the "heat of vaporization" required to boil these droplets in the combustion chamber to cool your combustion chamber. Also important to note you can use less water than methanol, water has ~2450 kJ/kg and methanol ~1150 kJ/kg, and also why BOTH of these are much better than using extra fuel (not sure on this one, but probably around 500 kJ/kg or less).
So by my rough calculation (and ignoring any heat of combustion), if you used water injection, and used 100 cc/min, you would have to use 210 cc/min of methanol to get the same cooling effect, or 490 cc/min extra fuel with no injection at all. Kinda puts it into perspective, eh?
Again, not arguing simple is better, I would not rush out and put extra injectors to control water injection, SIMPLE is better, listen to Tony. So long as you are cooling down the hottest cylinder as much as you needed to (usually #3 anyway), you have done the job.
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: (turncoat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turncoat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So by my rough calculation (and ignoring any heat of combustion), if you used water injection, and used 100 cc/min, you would have to use 210 cc/min of methanol to get the same cooling effect, or 490 cc/min extra fuel with no injection at all. Kinda puts it into perspective, eh? </TD></TR></TABLE>
OH! Disclaimer on the above. DO NOT use these numbers to tune your setup...especially the fuel numbers, I took a rough guess. I can look it up if people are interested, but still gas is a blend of all sorts of different things and it will still be a range of values.
Although you should also note you should be careful when switching from water to methanol, due to the above - you need roughly double the methanol (again note the disclaimer!).
So by my rough calculation (and ignoring any heat of combustion), if you used water injection, and used 100 cc/min, you would have to use 210 cc/min of methanol to get the same cooling effect, or 490 cc/min extra fuel with no injection at all. Kinda puts it into perspective, eh? </TD></TR></TABLE>
OH! Disclaimer on the above. DO NOT use these numbers to tune your setup...especially the fuel numbers, I took a rough guess. I can look it up if people are interested, but still gas is a blend of all sorts of different things and it will still be a range of values.
Although you should also note you should be careful when switching from water to methanol, due to the above - you need roughly double the methanol (again note the disclaimer!).
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From: 559, CA
Re: (96 GSR-T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have an S300 so I might look into activating it through the N20 output also.</TD></TR></TABLE>i believe it has an water injection output in it already 
you can add more timing this way, vs the ol s100 way of retarding timing only.
you can add more timing this way, vs the ol s100 way of retarding timing only.
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From: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Re: (turncoat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turncoat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would not rush out and put extra injectors to control water injection, SIMPLE is better, listen to Tony. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, a trigger circuit, timer, and a couple of injector drivers is real complicated.
I have one, what's your excuse?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eastbay92cx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You could search homemadeturbo.com, there are some helpful and informative posts on there about how water (or alc.) injection works, which kits are decent, etc.. J Davis wrote some pages on there i believe.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I get a certain perverse thrill linking high-dollar HT to informative tech posts on HMT... http://www.homemadeturbo.com/f...057.0
Yeah, a trigger circuit, timer, and a couple of injector drivers is real complicated.
I have one, what's your excuse?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eastbay92cx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You could search homemadeturbo.com, there are some helpful and informative posts on there about how water (or alc.) injection works, which kits are decent, etc.. J Davis wrote some pages on there i believe.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I get a certain perverse thrill linking high-dollar HT to informative tech posts on HMT... http://www.homemadeturbo.com/f...057.0
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Elizabethton, TN, USA
Re: (Joseph Davis)
For those of you would like to really explore what akly can do check this site out altho is doesnt exactly pertain to honda's.
Ive ran one of julio's kits on my buick GN now for 2 yrs and if you really want to run 93 only straight meth spray is diff the best way. Give him a call and he can show you exactly what can be done with his setups and one really wonderful thing he has a progressive kit for those who want to really see how far 93+meth can go.
One side note I know a gentleman in ohio that runs one of julio's kits on his DSM and frequently runs 28-30 psi on 93 and ive seen the car do it no tricks ........
http://www.alkycontrol.com
Ive ran one of julio's kits on my buick GN now for 2 yrs and if you really want to run 93 only straight meth spray is diff the best way. Give him a call and he can show you exactly what can be done with his setups and one really wonderful thing he has a progressive kit for those who want to really see how far 93+meth can go.
One side note I know a gentleman in ohio that runs one of julio's kits on his DSM and frequently runs 28-30 psi on 93 and ive seen the car do it no tricks ........
http://www.alkycontrol.com
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: (Joseph Davis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, a trigger circuit, timer, and a couple of injector drivers is real complicated.
I have one, what's your excuse?
I get a certain perverse thrill linking high-dollar HT to informative tech posts on HMT... http://www.homemadeturbo.com/f...057.0
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have to say more parts to fail... We are having enough problems as-is just trying to get all four of our damn fuel injectors to work like they should
By the way, the link on HMT was a very good read, thanks for sharing
Yeah, a trigger circuit, timer, and a couple of injector drivers is real complicated.
I have one, what's your excuse?
I get a certain perverse thrill linking high-dollar HT to informative tech posts on HMT... http://www.homemadeturbo.com/f...057.0
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have to say more parts to fail... We are having enough problems as-is just trying to get all four of our damn fuel injectors to work like they should
By the way, the link on HMT was a very good read, thanks for sharing