i believe you. i didnt know they switched pumps when they went to the 200psi pumps. and yeah psi will very from check valve and nozzle size

 

I am curious about that FloJet pump that's listed in that list from the various manufacturers that Turbojack (an Aquamist Distributor) put together a couple of years ago I think. I'm not familiar with that brand. Have to check into it.

 

i have no clue.

 

I was just wondering why the AEM water and meth injection kit is not working well with my Vortech supercharged GSR. A set of itr cams and AEM kit were installed before the tune at Church Automotive Tuning. The car made 422 whp and 260 trq from 388 whp and 246 trq from just cams alone. After that the water and meth kit was turned on, but Shawn at Church Automotive Tuning was only able to fine tuned the car to a max of 430 whp and 266 trq at 16.7 psi. I was expecting a 10 plus whp from the kit. My mixture was ~50/50 water and meth. What went wrong?

 

Nothing is wrong. Purpose. Of the Meth kit is to cool down the combustion chamber. Allows you to run more boost octane increase and less KR if you have a knock sensor. Stay with a 50/50 mix for best results

 

try running 100% meth and tune

 

no, then you rely on the meth as a fuel and is not safe. if the meth system ever fails pop goes your engine. 50/50 is what you should be running. water cools better than meth. a 50/50 mix does do better than 100% meth. also it steam cleans your engine for free

 

If he is a competent tuner it just means that your setup was not knock limited so there were really no power gains to be made by raising the knock threshold. It could very well be a 'safer' tune now though.

 

Actually, I think you have this a little bit backward again. You see, if you use any ratio of water/methanol and tune your engine to the maximum potential with that system operating, you run a very serious risk of engine damage if the kit quits.

One of the big advantages of running a high percentage of methanol is that the fact you're using it as a fuel gives another option for a failsafe. Some engine management systems call it a lean-protect feature. I'm running MegaSquirt3, and we call it "AFRsafety." At any rate, it doesn't work quite as quickly and easily if you are running less methanol (either by ratio, or my total volume of injectant), because the methanol is providing a less significant part of the fuel for the engine. That leaves you with the much more complicated question of how to directly monitor and respond to knock as a failsafe.

So to reiterate, there is no reason to stick blindly with 50/50, in fact, it will significantly limit the amount of performance gain you can get out of your system. The reason the manufacturers advocate that ratio is simply for liability. At 50/50 or more water fraction, the solution is quite non-combustible. As you get higher than around 60-65% methanol, it gets pretty nasty (and toxic too).

As far as running 100% methanol, I know that is pretty popular, but I personally don't see the sense in it either. The water provides a massive cooling effect in the combustion chamber, and thereby makes your pump gas function like race gas in terms of anti detonation. Methanol alone doesn't have the same properties to be able to provide those benefits as well in the combustion chamber. Methanol does do a better job of atomizing in the intake airstream though, and thus cools IATs better than water does.

Really, they do two complimentary jobs, and the best effect is obtained by using water/methanol ratio as one more parameter to tune.

For the guy with the S/C, the water/methanol injection won't add too much power directly, although since the methanol is an oxygenated fuel to a small extent, there may be some small direct gains from it. What it does do though, is give you the *potential* to make more power than you could have otherwise by raising your detonation threshold. If your engine was already tuned pretty optimally before the water/methanol, this might mean you run more boost to see the potential from the water/methanol system. If you can't make your tune a lot more aggressive with it, then more boost is pretty much where you have to go.

Hope that helps!

EDIT: I see Bailhatch posted while I was typing, and I agree completely with what he said.

 

I'm at worrk right now. Ill reply when I get off. But good discussion

 

Hello all.

Safe tunning is the most important thing to do with water/ meth injection. The reason i perferr people to use 50/50 is its kinda hard to get little nozzle syndorom. If alittle is good more is better etc. An engine can only take X amount of water in the cylinders before power is reduced. What happens is someone starts off with a 5 and a 50/50 mix then they try to run a 7 nozzle and run slower so they run more meth in the mix, and the amount of water stays the same. And so on and on. If intake temps are still high on a application i do recomend running more meth in the mix to get more fluid into the intake track.

But i just try to get people to watch out for getting to the point they start replacing large amounts of fuel to bring there o2 in line. Smart tunning is the key. Put the nozzle before the iat so you can pull timing if it quits. Dont' replace large amounts of gas to fix things.

If anyone has any specific questions about meth injection let me know.

 

Why?

 

I ran straight meth on my dsm with the off the shelf AEM kit. IAT's were fine. No knock 32psi on pump gas and a S258 on my stock 4g63, 3200lb dsm pig went 130mph.

I like the meth injection, but now im switching to race gas which will be a better option for next season.

 

the main thing i dont like about running 100% meth is pulling so much fuel out. when a mix does the same job. if not better imo. yesa race gas is the way to go lol

 

but yes i have ran 100% in the past then went 50/50 and i leaned my car outsome. it felt better. and most of all no kr

 

if you need more fuel do it the right way and get bigger injectors

 

That's not necessarily the right way, there are some significant advantages to replacing some pump gas with some methanol. It helps spool a big turbo sooner, raises knock threshold, cools the IATs more, it's an oxygenated fuel, etc. Basically, you are running a single stage on/off kit from the look of it, and trying to tell everyone a lot about water/methanol injection that you aren't even well informed or experienced about.

I'm done with this thread, it's a frustrating experience.

 

Higher timing helps spool.lol

 

Sure it does. . . . You might want to search on "anti-lag."

 

Can plain water be used because I don't know where to get meth, and if I run out I don't want to be in a hurry to go home and refill. I'm not looking for more power but instead safer IATs.

I have a JRSC setup and 10.6:1 @9psi.

I didn't tune my car but my cousin did. I'm on the following:

-RC 440s
-Crome
-Free Log
-PLX M300 Wideband
-Autometer EGT

My AFRs are between 11.5-11.9 and he said timing is advanced alot (I don't know what's considered alot so I didn't ask, but when the dyno operator would ask how much they were suprised it doesn't blow. Then they smile and tell me, yeah you'll be ok)

 

You can definitely run straight water, but the effect of the water is mostly a cooling of the combustion chamber, as opposed to cooler IATs (although it will help somewhat with that, just not as much as the methanol will).

Still, water is the best protection against detonation. If you inject enough water that you start to lose power from deadening out your combustion event a bit to much, you can try advancing your timing a bit more, or try more boost. Either way, there is potential to make more power.

Get yourself an otoscope so you can look way down inside your plugs where the porcelain meets up with the steel and make sure you aren't seeing more than the faintest hints of detonation. New plugs for every change of tune is the name of the game.

The problem with using straight water though is that it gets a lot more complicated setting up your failsafe system. You need to either have an elaborate system to monitor the water delivery directly, or you need a very advanced knock monitoring system to give you an indirect measure of water delivery.

If you want to get into using some methanol so you can use a lean protect feature of your engine management software for your failsafe, you can get 5 gallon pails of VP M1 for around $40. That much will last you a long time.

 

The thing is from what I've read, aside from tuning FOR the injection, my current tune is already in favor condition wise to accept straight water injection. I don't plan on tuning for it. I just want the cooler charge and don't care for more power. If I lose power that's fine, I'm just in the market for more reliability. I could care less for a failsafe because I'm running without it now. I simply want to add the system and go. Any suggestions on systems in this case?

 

If that's all you're looking for, then a small, single stage system like lyncoors is running would be perfect. Set it to come on at around 5psi or whatever works well, use a small nozzle, and enjoy a tiny bit more power, with less potential for engine damage. It's a good thing to do, it's just not getting the maximum benefit out of the water/methanol injection.

 

Where can I get this? Edit, found it, but what rate nozzle?

The reason why I'm not looking for more power is I don't drag race. I feel I have enough power for the road racing I do. Last time I went to VIR for a 2 day even it was 100deg outside and I was running non-intercooled. Power was fine but I have to drive what I raced back home.

As far as detonation, I'm not getting any. I had a det can hooked up for all my tunes as well as a J&S Safeguard unit. Dyno graphs are smooth as well with no hiccups.

 

1 bottle of peak washer fluid( low soap) and 1 bottle yellow heet pretty much makes a 50/50 mix