[QUOTE=hybrdthry911;44907485]so by what you just said the b18c makes more torque at the same rpm as the non vtec engine, and just holds it out higher so you agree with me. You also do realize that with a higher revving engine you can gear it down to multiply torque more right? so if you geared them to top out each gear at the same then the b18b would have to make the equivalent of 145 ftlbs to match the actual torque output of the b18c. this only furthers my point of the higher torque of the non-vtec engine is merely and illusion for idiots. you preach about how cars don't move without torque, but how quickly you forget that torque without rpm's means the car goes nowhere.

Please explain where I said the c holds torque out higher in the rpm band? I have never seen a car that the torque remains constant or increase throughout the rpm range and never stops climbing. That's y its always called peak torque it reaches its highest point and then starts to fall. What is the b18c's torque at redline? And what is the b18b's at redline I can bet u anything that the b1 holds its torque longer and closer to redline than the c.

 

I need my sperm tube clipped lmao? Who's the dumbass that said torque is the enemy.of fwd when it comes in low and hard trying to get it to the pavement? The op has been talking about offroad series racing dip ****. He even clearly stated the motor was not in a honda chances are I doubt its fwd prob rwd. Maybe u should read the entire thread before posting remarks like a high school ricer.

 

I did read the whole thread, the offroad comment slipped my mind when I read your stupiditiy, i didnt see where it said RWD, and judging by your reply your assuming its RWD when in fact you dont know... so the assumption has to be made that the motor is going to be run in its original configuration unless otherwise stated.

With that being said, if it is in fact an RWD Dirt Racer, I definately wouldnt run a straight LS, so my comments stand.

Why do you keep arguing about these motors in stock form? Clearly the OP isnt going to keep the motor stock so your argument is just a waste of breath.

FYI the only ricers I know of to this day are the guys that still swear by racing LS's and that they are superior to their VTEC Counterparts.... just sayin

 

I never said constant, i said it holds out higher in the rpm range, quit playing these word games.

Using your own data

b18b
140hp @ 6300 rpm = 116.7 ftlbs @ 6300rpm
121ftlbs @ 5200rpm

b18c1
170hp @ 7600rpm = 117.5 ftlbs @7600rpm
128ftlbs @ 5200rpm

clearly the b18c1 carries the torque higher in the rpm. the b18b's torque is dropping earlier as you can see at 6300rpm it has only 116ftlbs where as the b18c has 117 ftlbs more than 1000rpm's higher. the b18c can DO MORE WORK. there is no difference of opinions here. you are just flat out wrong.

 

And I just saying ur making urself sound even more stupid and no u didn't read the post obviously after saying the motor is in a different car he states its located in the middle. Unless he is running a driveshaft from the rear forward its obvious it can't be front wheel drive and I don't swear by racing my ls non vtec I race and eat vtecs in my awd 03 ww evolution. If ur worried bout torque spinning the wheels I suggest u look into something awd.

 

With E85 there is not reason why you cant run 10:1-11:1 comp on this motor with a good divided manifold/turbine housing... the response would be great with the properly matched turbo.

 

Wow this topic went horribly wrong somewhere up there.

Normal B18C is 81x87.2 for 1797cc. I wonder what was done to achieve 1650?

I recommend you keep your current B18C and sleeve the block to 84mm. I think that would be your most cost effective and reliable approach.

Did you already state what power level you need to be competitive? If you already did, I apologize. There was a lot to wade through in the replies. A power level goal would help us recommend the best turbo setup for you.

 

Ah the truth comes out. The only people who I have ever seen argue in favor of an LS motor are the only ones who don't have and/or never had a VTEC engine.

 

You obviously have little idea of what horsepower, or what algebra are.
I also have no idea as to why you're now pushing a zero horsepower situation. I'm not planning on making zero horsepower. If this is your goal then I wish you luck. Altough I doubt you'll need it.

You've now switched to an argument over potential vs kenetic energy. One which I think you need to study more. You should also study how a dyno works and how it calculates HP. I'll try and put this simply for you. No HP no torque, no torque no HP. Some HP some torque, some torque some HP. 2*0=0, 0*2=0, 2*1=2, 1*2=2. I'll repeat, HP is a function of torque, torque is a function of HP.

In terms of the B20. It's a viable proposal, however I'm trying to reduce friction, increase valve area, reduce piston speed, reduce crank stresses, by bringing the engine back to square as possible. I also presume the B20 has a taller deck which will mean issues with my engine installation. Unless of course the B18c simply has a longer rod. In which case I'll have a better rod/stroke ratio and piston dwell time in the B18c.

 

How am I wrong when I originally stated that the non vtec holds its torque lower which is best for offroad? Didn't I say that? I think I did r u not reading the posts either? Offroad racing usually is not done in high gears its done down low so he doesn't really need the extra revving of the vtec now does he? U honda guys wouldn know much about rally or offroad anyways. And if he is worried about spooling the turbo faster he could change his gearing lower which moves the torque even lower putting more load on the engine lower and spooling his turbo faster. Right or wrong?

 

Yeah i dont think anyone knows much about this off road class. What are the restrictions, what are the power goals of this car. I saw 500+hp on that BW matchbot so im guessing 500+hp?

 

W!d3b0dYr3X, where is this discussion going?

An LS non-VTEC motor is basically a B18 VTEC with a malfunctioning VTEC...lol.

Get a B18 GSR or ITR, and pull out your VTEC system. Now go run 20 PSI of boost on a T3/T4 and have torque fall off its face at 6000RPM. Voila, 300 WHP/380 WTQ of torque @ 20 PSI, instead of having 550 WHP/380 WTQ @ 20 PSI if VTEC was working.

Torque production is based on VE... You can never have a 1.8L LS motor with similar turbo/intake & exhaust manifold/cam/compression/displacement somehow make way more torque than another 1.8L B18 just because it has VTEC at the same boost. Both these engines share almost identical bore/stroke/RS relationships. To make more torque somehow, must come with more air/fuel into the cylinders at lower RPM range. If boost remains unchanged between the two with almost identical setups, then how could an LS make more "torque" but at the same boost? It can't.

That's why you rarely see an LS making way more torque more than another B18 VTEC with the same turbo/engine/cam setup at the same boost. They always need more boost in order to make more torque, which also means it needs more boost to make the same WHP as a VTEC. Very simple to understand.

Evo replacement? Just stroke your B18 to a 2.0L, shorten the rods, run a smaller cam, and you will have a motor that behaves like a 4G63. By doing that, focuses the motor to be efficient at a lower RPM range, but hurts it big time up top. You will also join the crew, and be using oil pressure gauges as your boost gauge, because 2-digits isn't enough to see what boost you're running. But on a Honda, it never likes torque so your crank, transmission, block, etc.. will probably explode with 600+ lbft of torque like what most Evo's like to put down.

 

b20 has the same deck height as the b18, it just comes with an 84mm bore from the factory with the 89mm crankshaft. the factory sleeve wont stand up to the abuse you are going to put it through so its a bad choice. Since you already have a b18 block then stick with that. A sleeved block b18 bored to 84mm would clearly be a stronger choice than a b20 block anyway.

 

gearing doesnt make a turbo spool faster.

 

He stated 500whp with 112 octane or E85.... took me a while to find it too with all the rah rah.

 

Wow u my friend are clearly a dumbass if u think that. U really do need to do some research. Shorter gears=more load lower in the rpm which equals spooling the turbo faster. That's exactly y my evo hits peak torque at only 3500rpm is cause the gears are so short. That's also y it does 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds stock. Hop on evom.net and look around at the people that race offroad and u will see that it does affect spool. Just like a longer gear which is what people opt for in drag racing evos move the power up top and it has a later spool.

 

The fact, is that a VTEC GSR/B18 still makes the same torque at lower RPM's, at the same boost.

So if the OP really wants to rev it low, then just shift early, or set the limiter at 6500RPM.

So it makes you wrong because you thought LS motors make more torque. It doesn't. It is no different than having a B18 VTEC, cranking up the boost and shutting off VTEC.

For offroading, it is not peak torque that is important. It is how quickly the torque comes in based on throttle and within a wide RPM range. This allows the driver be at a higher gear, but still have enough torque/power to haul the car out of slides and uphills. But the key being, "response". The car must build torque the moment the throttle is depressed.

It doesn't help much if the torque comes 3-4 seconds after you hit the throttle, no? It won't do so much the engine makes 600 WTQ @ 3000RPM, but it needs 4 secs of lag/delay to get it each time you hit the throttle.


Your theories are all skewed... You only describe what you "feel" and have experience, but no understanding of it at all.

If gearing affects spool, does your turbo spool faster in 5th gear versus 6th gear? Now don't lie, because I have an Evo 9 too with a stock turbo. Mine spools the same. So it only applies when the car has already accelerated too fast for its power versus gearing. Gearing does NOT affect spool time. Vehicle weight, speed, load affects it. You can tow a car with your Evo in 1st gear, and I am sure it will build full boost. Same gearing though!

 

THe current engine has been sleeved down using custom Darton sleeves (just a thicker wall), and runs custom pistons.
In terms of power level, I'll have to develop at least 450hp to make it compeditive. With the BW EFR's, I can produce more boost over a wider RPM range with quick spool times. This means I should (on paper) be able to upsize the turbo without paying the piper in spool times.
Unfortunately I have no experience with Honda engines, and equally no experience with BW turbos. All my race engines are Cosworth, Nissan or Toyota and my turbos, Garrett, Mitsi or Toyota.

 

Lol you and wildbody need to perform this act on yourselves, you seem to like each other enough and think alike....why not?

 

I wouldnt bet the bank of the EFR stuff, I have been digging for 3rd party graphs and I cant find much... until its proven its just bandwagon hype IMO. Not saying they dont work, so dont get me wrong.

Listen to what Tony the Tiger has to say, his knowledge is extremely valuable for what you are trying to do.

 

Thanks for that, I had surmised the same.

 

I think you engine choice is clear. keep the b18c open up the bore to 84mm or whatever you need to get your 2.0l displacement. You have 2 choices for oem honda cranks 89mm LS or the 87.2mm GSR crank both good choices and very reliable even at the power levels you want. I would focus more on the turbo system for your application. There is a ton of data on an array of turbochargers with those engine specs.

Just for ***** and giggles heres my b18c built to those specs 82.7mm x 84mm with a gt3076r on it from 4 years ago. incredible powerband and this was on pump gas. is this too high in the rpm range for you? I dont know too much about off road racing of where you guys keep the R's througout the race.

 

[QUOTE=Tony the Tiger;44908101]The fact, is that a VTEC GSR/B18 still makes the same torque at lower RPM's, at the same boost.

So if the OP really wants to rev it low, then just shift early, or set the limiter at 6500RPM.

So it makes you wrong because you thought LS motors make more torque. It doesn't. It is no different than having a B18 VTEC, cranking up the boost and shutting off VTEC.

For offroading, it is not peak torque that is important. It is how quickly the torque comes in based on throttle and within a wide RPM range. This allows the driver be at a higher gear, but still have enough torque/power to haul the car out of slides and uphills. But the key being, "response". The car must build torque the moment the throttle is depressed.

It doesn't help much if the torque comes 3-4 seconds after you hit the throttle, no? It won't do so much the engine makes 600 WTQ @ 3000RPM, but it needs 4 secs of lag/delay to get it each time you hit the throttle.




Your theories are all skewed... You only describe what you "feel" and have experience, but no understanding of it at all.

If gearing affects spool, does your turbo spool faster in 5th gear versus 6th gear? Now don't lie, because I have an Evo 9 too with a stock turbo. Mine spools the same. So it only applies when the car has already accelerated too fast for its power versus gearing. Gearing does NOT affect spool time. Vehicle weight, speed, load affects it. You can tow a car with your Evo in 1st gear, and I am sure it will build full boost. Same gearing though![/

QUOTE]

So ur saying in ur evo at 3k rpms in second the turbo spoold the same rate as 3k rpm in 6th right cuz that's what u just said? How come in my evo at 2k rpm in second the turbo spools in maybe 2 seconds and if I do the same in 5th at 2k rpm im doing 130+ before hitting full boost. If everything is equal 2k rpms at 20mph in second and kick it your turbo will spool faster than at 2k rpm at 20 mph in 5th gear. Now please tell me again how gearing does not affect spool time? Please im begging u cuz ur wrong. If u have an evo to and it spools the same in fifth as it does in second then u are a god and I want to know how u achieved that. The only time the turbo spools the same amount or close is if u kick it in second go through third fourth and fifth never lifting but then that's not spooling technically cuz the turbo has already been spinning at full rpm and it doesn go back to the original rpm the turbine is spinning at momentum keeps it moving in between shifts. But if ur evo spools the same amount in second at 20mph 2k rpm as it does in fifth at 20mph at 2k rpm please post a video of this cause im dying to see it.

 

Bang, Nail, Head. Didn't realize people here would have such an understanding of offroading. It would appear that I have underestimated some of you.
I do however realize that some compromises must be made. I'm not expecting the performance from my Cosworth/Nissan 3.5ltr twin turbo. But it would be nice to throw the car in amongst the slower V8 cars and scare one or two of them.

 

And ur thinking to hard. When u change gearing what else does it affect. It affects the speed and the load. A car with lower ratio gears will have more acceleration one with higher ratio has more top end or speed. So explain again how gears wont affect spool up since spool up is affected by load and speed and gears change load and speed?