So with that setup, they're making 556whp. Stock ECU, VAFC, 10:1 FMU. Am I missing something here?

Discuss.

Here's the thread if you haven't read it yet: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=418905&page=1


[Modified by 98CTRCoupe, 2:01 PM 2/27/2003]

 

Well considering i was there one time when it hit over 470 whp, i believe it. Ive seen everything on that car and they are 100% telling the truth about it. I dont know how they do it, but they do. He hit that number, backed the car off the dyno and drove home. Sick car and a cool *** owner as well.

 

So how can you assume that they have everything they told you they had? (Tongue twister... LOL!)

I'm looking for an explanation as to how they can achieve such a high output with such limited fueling. And how come some people spend $2k on their fueling system alone to hit close to those numbers...yet these guys did it with less than $1k. Thanx!

 

either they are lying, or running 150% duty cycles

 

Is that even possible? I mean, for a sustained amount of time (this is rumored to be a "street" car BTW)

10:1 FMU + 30psi = 300psi of fuel pressure! That's on top of base pressure. Someone please tell me that's not possible? (Even with all stainless lines, can the FP(s) even pump that much pressure?) And again, for a sustained amount of time?


[Modified by 98CTRCoupe, 2:29 PM 2/27/2003]

 

Because i used to spend a lot of time there when i lived down the street. Last time i talked to him, he had just blown his motor and was sending it off to get sleeved. These guys arent the type of people who lie about stuff like this. Is it safe to run super high fuel pressure to make the car hit the numbers? Probably not but it obviously works. I can vividly remember the look on that dudes face when he hit 470 whp even, it was unbelievable because it wasnt expected. Not to mention, out of all the guys there, the guy that owns the black car is the one i would trust the most with my car if i allowed others to work on it

 

Well, that's all nice and all that you're good buddies with the owner. Personally, I love to talk tech to anyone who would listen BUT, from my perspective...I just can't see this setup making the numbers that they put up. (Maybe I'm just too stubborn for my own good) But when someone claims that it's all in their "Black Magic" tuning...it leaves alot to be questioned. And I have a weird feeling that there's more to this than what's being said. Understand my point?

Trust me when I say that I would love to believe the above setup can produce such huge numbers. Heck, that leaves alot more $$$ for me to keep...right? So if it works, we can all benefit from it tremendously. Surely someone has some insight...

 

I'm just stating a fact. Im not buddies with him, i doubt he would even remember me unless we were face to face. Im just saying, hes a cool guy and i believe he is not lying. If anyone can gripe about that shop i sure as hell could. They did quite a number to one of the cars i built. They ended up fixing the issues which is why i wont talk **** about them, they were a new shop and had growing pains like all new shops do. Just because you havent seen something, does that make it fake? Do you think i come on here just to support their shop with lies? Look at the number of posts ive made and how long ive been on here, then think to yourself what i would gain from lying. Nothing. I do all of my own work and have done so for many years, cyber has nothing to offer me except a job if i didnt work behind a computer.

The "black magic" is just a little box that they use to fool with the map, it does some other stuff that im not sure of but thats one of its tricks. Its kind of like the greddy blue box i guess but for more powerful setups and i think its programmable.

Plain and simple they are running super high fuel pressure to get away with the fuel issues. As i already stated, is it a good/safe way to do things? Probably not but it does work, at least until an injector locks up. I wouldnt do it to any car i tune but whatever works for them is cool. They obviously have the money to go standalone and i dont understand why they dont.


[Modified by 5speedv6, 11:18 PM 2/28/2003]

 

Maybe they're doing dyno pulls in 1st gear

 

Having done a considerable amount of tuning with various standalones, 500whp is NOT possible with 550's. I dont care who tells you what it cannot be done. The static fuel pressure would have to be around 100psi minimum and running the injectors at 100% duty cycle. I doubt that even this would allow for enough fuel to be squeezed out of the injectors. To give you an example, I ran 720cc injectors via hondata on my stock internal gsr block. At stock 38psi fuel pressure, my duty cycle was 65% on 15 lbs, running 12:1 air/fuel. I estimate that i was making around 350whp at least. If you do the math, 550's arent going to work.

 

he is using a high rate fpr.. he could easily make that power with enough fuel pressure... at 10:1 the pump would max out before he hit 300psi fuel pressure, but he could definately make the power with 550's and enough pressure

I made 365whp with 370 cc injectors at about 160 psi of fuel pressure, and my injectors were not maxed yet.. given the 550's are around 30% larger I think it is possible


[Modified by Phoenix GSR, 7:01 PM 2/27/2003]

 

There is no way that you can make that much power with those size injectors. I dont care how much argument goes into this. Mathematically it doesnt work out. 900cc's with the fuel pressure bumped up to 60psi static will barely, i mean barely be able to support that kind of power. So that means the injectors are going to be around 80-85 psi under boost. The duy cycle would be around 80-85%, which is about the maximum that i would push an injector for reliability issues. You are telling me that they are running 100% duty cycles, and 100+ psi of fuel pressure? The injectors wouldnt last more than 2-3K miles before failing.

 

Riiiiiiight. Are you sure they weren't stuck wide open? What other mods did you have anyways?

 

Here are the videos:

http://www.cybernationmotorsports.com

There is a little info about the car there, but nothing that has not already been said....

 

I wont believe it till I see it with my own eyes.

I can't imagine the duty cycle on those 550's.

Very hard to believe!

 

i don't have much experience with turbo setups and larger injectors etc., but it doesn't sound possible to make that kind of power with that fuel setup. if the fuel system can handle 566WHP, then i'm sure it won't be for long. those poor injectors.

 

It IS possible with the 10:1 fmu. You gotta figure a 550cc injector at 160psi of fuel pressure. It's not the best setup, but it's possible. I've made over 350whp on 310's with a 12:1 fmu. You're talking about almost double that injector. 550's are good for about 400-450 at 45psi, but 160psi makes a huge difference...

 

But you have to keep in mind that the injectors life span is going to be decreased significantly. I dont understand why they wouldnt just run a larger injector and a standalone. I dont really think that using stock ecu is any type of bragging right.

 

Right, by no means am i saying it's a good way or the right way to do it, but it is possible. That was the original question, right?

 

Hey Tony what else was done to the fuel system and how long did it last?

 

98CTRCoupe - I had a bensons bottom end (B18c) with stock head, drag turbo kit (15 psi of boost) and the rc 370's with an afc and a cartech adjustable regulator and stock p72 ecu... I tuned it to 11:1 air/fuel ratio and I had room to spare... I am positive on my fuel pressure.. I used a greddy electric 10 bar oil pressure guage as a fuel pressure guage that would max out under full boost... my injectors were lucas disc style rc's that rc told me had been tested in excess of 200 psi and they could not lock them... I ran my setup for nearly 30,000 miles and for all I know it is still running (some punk stole the car).. the only problem in all that time was 1 broken stock fp regulator... a good trade off for a $1000 engine management and $500 worth of injectors...

I also dont think it is the best setup by any means.. just saying anything can be done.. when you triple your fuel pressure you effectively double your injector size, so they are running the equivalent of 4 1100cc injectors.. who can argue that you couldnt make 560whp with that much injector?


[Modified by Phoenix GSR, 10:47 PM 2/27/2003]


[Modified by Phoenix GSR, 8:06 AM 2/28/2003]

 

That car had 310's, 255lph intank pump, msd inline pump, 12:1 fmu, and an afc. This was also on a stock 96 gsr computer (obd2). The car made 353whp at 14psi. Nothing spectacular, but it ran pretty good. He went 11.7 with it, not sure on the mph. It still runs to this day...

 

Hey Dick, why don't you take a drive down to the shop!??!! Tell me when your'e coming so I can show up...

Cybernation Motorsports
444 E. Sunrise Blvd
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Zee

 

We got a preview of the car on monday night. It looks like it will run pretty hard.The car sounds really good too. Anyway,bring it to dyno day at Cartek in Davie on the 8th so everyone can see it with their own eyes. My car wont be finished in time but I should be ready the week after otherwise I would bring mine too. Hey, get in touch with someone from our shop for this weekend. there will be some decent cars coming out saturday night!!

 

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