Hi,

i have to choose between two manifold styles for my car. Please don't look at the brand, we will fabricate the manifold ourself, the pics are only to show how style i'am talking about

first:
this manifold has the advantage that i can put a full size radiator in my car, which is very important to create a good circuit track able coolant system.

second would be a full race style ramhorn manifold (i think everyone knows how it looks):
with this manifold and external wg i can only run half size which maybe bringe me into coolant problems.

power goal is around 320-370 whp. but i want a very effective setup, so most power with as less boost as possible.

so now the question: how much better will be the full-race manifold agains the other design? i know that there is no exact answer but when keeping a setup that is able for 350whp i.e. and switching just the manifolds, about how many hp difference do we talking here? 5whp, 10whp, 50whp? just to get a region of how much i will trade when going full size radiator :-)

Thanks

 

the ram horn will make it so your turbo will spool faster, with that style, it takes it a wile fore the turbo to spool. i would go with the ram horn style.

 

bump for some more info

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liquidmetal &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the ram horn will make it so your turbo will spool faster, with that style, it takes it a wile fore the turbo to spool. i would go with the ram horn style.</TD></TR></TABLE>

please do explain why you think that

 

bump for some more info

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by paul vang &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">please do explain why you think that</TD></TR></TABLE>isnt it

log = faster spool, less topend power
ramhorn/equal length= slower spool, more topend power

 

i wouldnt worry about overheating with a half sized radiator.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AbitAvenger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

log = faster spool, less topend power
ramhorn/equal length= slower spool, more topend power</TD></TR></TABLE>



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liquidmetal &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the ram horn will make it so your turbo will spool faster, with that style, it takes it a wile fore the turbo to spool. i would go with the ram horn style.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AbitAvenger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">log = faster spool, less topend power
ramhorn/equal length= slower spool, more topend power</TD></TR></TABLE>
Where do you see a Log-Style Manifold in this thread?!? This is not about the two mentioned styles above. Both of them are nearly equal length and both have a collector which makes them totaly different from a log style design.
The Ramhorn is a bit more EL then the other design, but thats exactly the point, how much difference did this makes?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wouldnt worry about overheating with a half sized radiator. </TD></TR></TABLE>
oh, but i will do... i'am running half size now and we build a lot of cars running half size and nearly every of them the fan is running nearly all the time. The coolant stays withing normal regions but only the sign that the fan is running all the time shows me that the coolant system is working on its limits.
Especialy my car will be designed for endurance track racing so the last thing i need is a overheating and maybe destructed 3000$ engine because of a too small radiator.

but back to topic please, its not about which radiator to choose, its about how much efficiency i will loose due to the other manifold design. :-)

 

Dude nobody tests SS Auto crap vs. Full-Race so the answer to your question is probably not here.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 GSR-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dude nobody tests SS Auto crap vs. Full-Race so the answer to your question is probably not here.</TD></TR></TABLE>

its been done before

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

its been done before </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well then please post the results

 

what does ss auto have to do whith anyhting? hes asking about 2 different styles of manifolds thats it. btw ssauto just pretty much copied fullrace with that manifold too

 

Yes, he is right, this is NOT about SS Autochrome, full-race or any other companies manifolds. Its just about the effectivity from the two different designs.

but you can get that if you had read my initial post properly. :-)

i just used the ss auto picture because i didn't find another for this particular manifold style.

 

you will never get a straight answer because most people here have no personal experience on doing stuff their own they pay someone to do it. so they don't know.

I would recomend the full-race ramhorn style, don't know why but I have that style from rld.
plus you can always design your own wastegate placement so you can fit any size radiator you want. plus the ramhorn style seem easier to make than the other equal length. since you are making it yourself, it should be easy to make the radiator fit

 

Problem with the ramhorn design is, that you don't have thae much variations in wg placement because of the tube design. you can change it a bit, but that helps you to get a full-size radiator in a crx. its impossible with this design.

the work to build the manifold isn't relevant at the moment... in first place it comes to the technical stuff.

i know that many of the ppl here don't know why they just do things... most things are just hypes and so on. but i know that there are a few guys around here which have a good technical background.

i'am also don't seeking for a answer like "with type x you will get 234rpm sooner spool-up but 1.23439 hp less at topend" thats not what i want... only a region to make a decision on my own.

i think there will be a difference between the two designs in topend power and spool up characteristics. but if the difference is small enough, the ramhorn design isn't the thing to go with because of the bid disadvantage of the radiator.

 

There is very minimal power differance, if any at all, between the Full-Race top mount and the Full Race bottom mount(ramhorn). The advantage of the top mount is the ease of running a 4in. down pipe. The spool up time betwwen the two imo is gonna be just about the same. ....So if its easier to fit a full size Rad. in the car using the top mount style, then thats what you should go for.
...if also your worried about spool up time, and your only lookin to make 320-370hp. selection of the right turbo is what you should concintrate on. maybe looking at some of Garrett's smaller BB turbo's is what you need.

...also IMO, if you set up your coolent system right all you might need is half-sized radiator. Try using a thicker core C&R with a high power aftermarket fan mounted opposite side of the engine bay. Don't forget to reverse the polarity of the wires so the fan blows in the right direction. Also using low temp. thermostat and Fan switch(Mugen or Spoon) helps too.

 

Hi,

thanks for the info, it's not a topmount/bottom mount decision but i think i got what you want to say.

but i have a question to the cooling system.
thinker radiator core, is clear... but, how did a lower temp thermostat help? if a coolant system is working on its limits and the thermostat is allready full open, how can it help to cool down the engine?

the other question i have is why everyone says that half-size (twice as thick as the stock rad.) will be enough for a 400hp race car?!
even if you use a thicker radiator, you only have about 80% of the stock coolant volume of your radiator? how can that be enough? if thats true:
- why does the fans of all the half-size radiator cars run all the time?
- the stock honda coolant system must be 150% oversized when 300 PS are no problem. (and why should they to that?!?)

i've talked to many race car teams and nearly every of them told me that radiator surface area is very important, only if you can't go any bigger, thinkness is the best way to go... there are also many other variables that makes a good coolant system but if the radiator is too small, nothing else really can help you out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi,

thanks for the info, it's not a topmount/bottom mount decision but i think i got what you want to say.

but i have a question to the cooling system.
thinker radiator core, is clear... but, how did a lower temp thermostat help? if a coolant system is working on its limits and the thermostat is allready full open, how can it help to cool down the engine?

the other question i have is why everyone says that half-size (twice as thick as the stock rad.) will be enough for a 400hp race car?!
even if you use a thicker radiator, you only have about 80% of the stock coolant volume of your radiator? how can that be enough? if thats true:
- why does the fans of all the half-size radiator cars run all the time?
- the stock honda coolant system must be 150% oversized when 300 PS are no problem. (and why should they to that?!?)

i've talked to many race car teams and nearly every of them told me that radiator surface area is very important, only if you can't go any bigger, thinkness is the best way to go... there are also many other variables that makes a good coolant system but if the radiator is too small, nothing else really can help you out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

..Yes, if the coolent system is already hot or on its "limit" and the the thermostat is already open it won't help. The point of it is to open sooner and for the fan to turn on sonner than the oem one's do, in turn keeping it cooler from the start. Once you have been running the car hard for a while, the only thing that will keep the motor cooler is a thicker or bigger Rad.
..But running the setup that i mentioned before (ie. thicker core, strong fan, low temp. thermostat and switch) will be sufficiant. Granted that after running the motor hard for a long period of time it will be at its limit, but it will not overheat.

...like i said, if you feel unconfortable using a half-sized Rad. because of fear that you might over heat, then just get a full sized one and Fab up a top mount to suit your needs.

Good luck with the build

 

yep, thanks... i will sleep about it :-)

 

a lot of people always ask me why my radiator so small even though it 4 times thicker than stock, I am using a mishimoto aluminum radiator, and before I went with a ramhorn I was using a fluidyne integra full size, my car cools better with the mishimoto because its out of the way of the turbo and downpipe, unlike the fullsize one that was directly in front of the turbo so it gets all the heat.
I think a thick aluminum Eg size radiator will cool better than a car using a full size with a turbo, for that simple fact that the radiator is out of the way of the main heat source.

plus if you just plan on using a full size factory replacent radiator its not going to help anything, so a thick half sized aluminum one will be better.

 

yes, thats true... when i choose the other manifold design, my plan is to run a full-size, double thick custom radiator.

but you are right, the heat from the manifold and turbo is a point.

 

If the car sees a lot of street driving, I'd go with a full size radiator. It only takes 15-30 mins of heatsoak (stuck in traffic, etc) to drive the coolant temps way up there on a hot summer day that you'd eventually be at the edge of overheating. It won't overheat as you drive regularly, but if the temps are so hot already, you won't be able to drive the car hard at all on a nice summer day.

For a weekend car/drag car that won't see street driving that often, a half size rad is sufficient. In that case, you'd want to choose a manifold that provides a better turbo placement, more power, ease of repair/disassembly, etc..

Also for 320-370 WHP, you can get away with a shorter intercooler. This helps airflow through the radiator and engine bay big time and helps cooling as well.

 

mrx: the biggest downfall of ram horn manifolds in my opinion is the poor wastegate priority. there arent too many honda manifolds that take that into consideration as a priority during their design.

tony im assuming you run a full size radiator?

also, what manifold do you run, is it a greddy?

edit: i just checked out the link in your sig. and answered my questions; yes and yes. man that is a sweet set up

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by erebunicrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what does ss auto have to do whith anyhting? hes asking about 2 different styles of manifolds thats it. btw ssauto just pretty much copied fullrace with that manifold too
</TD></TR></TABLE>

SSautochrome didn't copy full-race, they copied kooks turbo header which has been out for a lot longer than full-race has been around.