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Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion (https://honda-tech.com/forums/)
-   Forced Induction (https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/)
-   -   K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question?? (https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/k20-eks-fuel-pressure-regulator-turbo-b-series-question-3335181/)

K20.ek 03-22-2019 09:45 AM
K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
So my setup
60-1 stage 3 Garrett turbo
ls crank w/ ls eagle h-beam rods
cp 9.0.1 pistons
ctr cams exhaust -2/ intake +1
RC 1000cc injectors
255 lph walboro fuel pump
stock fpr

just got done on Dyno at balanced performance with Philand looking to hit 350-400hp. Each time it goes full boost past 6k it leans out to 13.0 a/f. So he tried to adjust more fuel to it but still no change. So he just cleaned up the low cams and ignition timing.
And he suggest that either my fuel pump sock needs replacing, filter filter replacement, aftermarket FPR and bigger oil catch can.

I thought a stock FPR could hold up to 500hp... I will will replace the fuel pump sock and fuel filter and bigger catch can NP to me. But someone chime in about stock FPR.

Here a video. Just for fun he pulled to 4500rpm to see what power it made at that level. 144whp and 164ft lbs torque.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/05o7...ill_&_Cornelia

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fqAMw43AtF4h1CV7OjbiUWfw#Sugar_Hill_
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0iSZ...ill_&_Cornelia

AZ_CIVIC 03-22-2019 10:34 AM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
When you say stock FPR do you mean totally stock or a modified FPR like B&M or Blox? If it is totally stock you can't adjust fuel pressure and would at the very least need like the B&M or something or get a real FPR like AEM.

That is problem number one, problem number two is using RC1000 injectors which would require you to run a resistor box which I'm sure you are but I would get another set of injectors like ID1000's.

I'm guessing it's probably not your fuel pump but the fact you are using a stock FPR with no adjustability and junk RC injectors. Also running a bigger catch can has nothing to do with your issues.

Txdragon 03-22-2019 01:21 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Had a similar issue when I was tuning. The vac line popped off the fpr. Now injectors could be the culprit too. If you're having any inconsistencies in tunes. Would have to look over a couple runs to see what the injectors are doing though.

K20.ek 03-22-2019 01:25 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Thanks for the response. Yes the fpr is stock oem Honda, I will be looking to upgrade that now.

and yes I know the Rc injectors are junk but it’s what I had on hand, and it’s on a resistor box. I will looking to see if I can get some ID injectors.

I know the catch can isn’t the cause of the issue of the fuel problem. He just recommended to go bigger to minimize blow-by since oil is already blowing out the little filter... anybody know a good catch can setup???

thanks

DaX 03-22-2019 04:32 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894106)
anybody know a good catch can setup???
Look at Go-Autoworks - hand made, several options, local (SouthEast), one-man-show who supports the boosted Honda crowd, etc.

K20.ek 03-22-2019 06:08 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Ok. I think I figured out why I’m leaning out on vtec. I just remembered I have a d series fpr and it’s not the same as the b series vtec fpr, correct me if I’m wrong. But if I get the b series fpr that should fix the issue on my fueling???

if it does, then I’d like to buy a stock fpr to reach my goal. I know I’m not goin no more than 400whp. Or unless someone with experience convince me otherwise.

motoxxxman 03-22-2019 06:20 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
You don't need an aftermarket FPR, it won't affect anything. The only time you need to upgrade the FPR is if the fuel pump is big enough to overpower the stock FPR, causing higher than normal fuel pressures at low load. It will not affect top end high load fueling though.
If you've ever noticed, AEM FPR's come with multiple orifices. the one that comes installed is actually the same size as stock, which makes it not even do anything differently than stock except allow you to adjust fuel pressure. And the stock size is fine for a 255. The middle sized orifice is for 320-450lph pumps. The large orifice is for 450+lph pumps.

I know RC injectors all too well, and my guess is the injectors are your problem. They have TERRIBLE atomization, clog up easy, and become very uneven quite easily.
Sock may or not be getting clogged up, same for the fuel filter.

One question though; do you have an aftermarket relay setup for the fuel pump? It could just be as simple as the fuel pump not getting enough current through the stock wiring causing a loss of fuel flow/pressure. 255's recommend a relay kit, but isn't always necessary. 300+ usually requires a relay kit.

motoxxxman 03-22-2019 06:22 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894260)
Ok. I think I figured out why I’m leaning out on vtec. I just remembered I have a d series fpr and it’s not the same as the b series vtec fpr, correct me if I’m wrong. But if I get the b series fpr that should fix the issue on my fueling???

if it does, then I’d like to buy a stock fpr to reach my goal. I know I’m not goin no more than 400whp. Or unless someone with experience convince me otherwise.
pretty much all 1988-2001 honda fpr's are identical. D, B, H, F... same 2-bolt flange, same size orifice, same ~43psi spring pressure, etc

K20.ek 03-22-2019 07:35 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by motoxxxman (Post 51894265)
You don't need an aftermarket FPR, it won't affect anything. The only time you need to upgrade the FPR is if the fuel pump is big enough to overpower the stock FPR, causing higher than normal fuel pressures at low load. It will not affect top end high load fueling though.
If you've ever noticed, AEM FPR's come with multiple orifices. the one that comes installed is actually the same size as stock, which makes it not even do anything differently than stock except allow you to adjust fuel pressure. And the stock size is fine for a 255. The middle sized orifice is for 320-450lph pumps. The large orifice is for 450+lph pumps.

I know RC injectors all too well, and my guess is the injectors are your problem. They have TERRIBLE atomization, clog up easy, and become very uneven quite easily.
Sock may or not be getting clogged up, same for the fuel filter.

One question though; do you have an aftermarket relay setup for the fuel pump? It could just be as simple as the fuel pump not getting enough current through the stock wiring causing a loss of fuel flow/pressure. 255's recommend a relay kit, but isn't always necessary. 300+ usually requires a relay kit.
Im lost on the fpr now lol. Cause I read on here h-t that b series vtec and d series fpr are not the same🤔
here the link:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/acura-...stion-3091884/

and yes yes I need to get rid of these injectors, anybody want to trade and plus cash on my end if it’s a good deal 😂

No relay for the fuel. And I will look into that.

K20.ek 03-22-2019 07:42 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
What other brand besides 1000cc ID injectors are good? The price for them is expensive. I want something good but don’t want to break the bank.

JRCivic1 03-22-2019 09:59 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894293)
What other brand besides 1000cc ID injectors are good? The price for them is expensive. I want something good but don’t want to break the bank.
Grenading the engine will cost more. Did the tuner say that he was reaching 100% duty cycle during the tuning session ??? Get the fuel injectors cleaned and flow tested. Also, double check the fuel pump install. Aftermarket fuel socks tend to suck flat and cause restrictions in flow. Have you replaced the fuel filter ???

K20.ek 03-22-2019 11:21 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by JRCivic1 (Post 51894318)
Grenading the engine will cost more. Did the tuner say that he was reaching 100% duty cycle during the tuning session ??? Get the fuel injectors cleaned and flow tested. Also, double check the fuel pump install. Aftermarket fuel socks tend to suck flat and cause restrictions in flow. Have you replaced the fuel filter ???
Tuner did not say he was maxed out, but he did questioned me again a second time making sure it’s 1000cc and then I showed him that it says it on the injectors. He thinks something is restricting the flow. The fuel filter gauge reads 33psi on idle. And so he tried to throttle it to see if the gauge would rise on the fuel filter but it did not. The fuel filter is a year and half old.
So I have just placed an order for new fuel filter and fuel strainer from Autozone so I’ll be picking up in the morning and I’ll see if that helps.

I will try tomorrow to search around near me to see who can clean and flow test the injectors.

thanks for all the help guys will keep you guys updated.

TheShodan 03-22-2019 11:26 PM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894293)
What other brand besides 1000cc ID injectors are good? The price for them is expensive. I want something good but don’t want to break the bank.
They are all Bosch injectors, which are going to be expensive than the Rocester/Lucas style (could ever be). I'm still on a resistor box for my Siemen Deka injectors. I still don't know if I'll switch, as I'm perfectly fine after 15 years. But I don't use E85, so I'm not too worried about it.

I do agree that if you plan to run that large of an injector, the Bosch style injector had a much finer spray pattern resulting in better atomization than the Delphi & Rochester Lucas like RC.

So, not all 1000cc objectives are definately not the same.

Injector Dynamics is on the front lines of using Bosch Style injectors, but are not the only ones, by far.

South Bay
Fuel Injector Clinic (FIC)
Grams ( Skunk2)

Those are the 1st to come to mind

motoxxxman 03-23-2019 04:49 AM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894287)
Im lost on the fpr now lol. Cause I read on here h-t that b series vtec and d series fpr are not the same
they are the same. I've inspected probably several hundred of them by now from all years and motors, and they're identical in every way except one: the vacuum port is often at different angles for different motors
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894328)
The fuel filter gauge reads 33psi on idle. And so he tried to throttle it to see if the gauge would rise on the fuel filter but it did not.
33psi at idle with vacuum line connected is normal. But it definitely should rise if you peg the throttle. The correct way to test is to remove the vacuum line from the FPR while idling and make sure fuel pressure rises to around 43psi. If it does not, then the FPR is probably damaged. If it does rise to 43psi with vacuum line removed, next would be to watch fuel pressure through a dyno pull. If pressure drops off as rpm climbs, then it's a fuel supply issue; pump, strainer, filter, electrical current to pump, or a kinked fuel line.

K20.ek 03-23-2019 06:31 AM
re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Anyone have any experience with this oil catch can?
https://www.maperformance.com/produc...iABEgLA3PD_BwE

TheShodan 03-23-2019 06:33 AM
Re: Turbo B18C1 fpr question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894393)
Anyone have any experience with this oil catch can?
https://www.maperformance.com/produc...iABEgLA3PD_BwE
That's ridiculously insane.....And not in a good way IMHO

K20.ek 03-23-2019 08:21 AM
Re: Turbo B18C1 fpr question??
 
Originally Posted by TheShodan (Post 51894396)
That's ridiculously insane.....And not in a good way IMHO
Exactly what I was saying!!! It’s priced to high for just a box. But my tuner is who recommended it to me!

K20.ek 03-23-2019 08:33 AM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
And I just picked up new fuel filter and fuel strainer at Autozone.
Also when I checked to see my fpr gauge on my fuel filter it’s at 40-41psi. With vacuum hose unhooked off fpr it rises to 47psi.
so im guessing my fpr is still working as it should.

i have not installed the new filters yet as I have my daughter gymnastics meet today and won’t be able to get to it later or tomorrow morning.

As I uploaded the fuel map from what my tuner had the low cam looks just not smooth... idles at 13.3-13-5 crushing at 13.5-14.2 hmmm. But drives ok. I asked him why idle on 13.0s, he said too cool down the motor and so it’ll drive smoother without jerking or something like that.

ill try to load it here and see what you guys think. He said he tuned the low cams and ignition timing so I would thought it would be smoother map. Ill also upload my street (tune done by me)low cam map too, and my wideband reads 14.7-15.0 idle crushing at 14.3-14.7.

K20.ek 03-23-2019 08:47 AM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 

motoxxxman 03-23-2019 10:44 AM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894438)
Also when I checked to see my fpr gauge on my fuel filter it’s at 40-41psi. With vacuum hose unhooked off fpr it rises to 47psi.
so im guessing my fpr is still working as it should.


Yes, it does sound like it is working fine.

Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51894438)
As I uploaded the fuel map from what my tuner had the low cam looks just not smooth... idles at 13.3-13-5 crushing at 13.5-14.2 hmmm. But drives ok. I asked him why idle on 13.0s, he said too cool down the motor and so it’ll drive smoother without jerking or something like that.
Ill also upload my street (tune done by me)low cam map too, and my wideband reads 14.7-15.0 idle crushing at 14.3-14.7.
yeah that first pic looks like it needs a little bit of work. the next series of pics looks better.
Hondas do like to idle in low 14's though, sometimes even into 13's if the injectors aren't the greatest.

While you're out and about, buy a turkey baster. When you go to do your fuel pump strainer, look inside the tank to see if there's grey/brown sediment in the bottom of the tank that kinda looks like sand. If there is, that might be a big part of the problem. Not a big deal though, it's just corrosion sediment from age. Use the turkey baster to suck up the sediment and dispose of it in a safe manner. My preference is to spray it out of the baster onto something absorbant and then lighting it on fire :)

K20.ek 03-24-2019 10:13 AM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Ok so update. Changed out fuel filter and pump sock. Checked the fpr on idle, it sits at 43psi. Rev it on 2 step to 4500rpm and hits up to 50psi. looks good to me.

but I got aem fpr on order and a 1.2l catch can with 10an fitting and line coming.

wunfstgsr 03-24-2019 03:45 PM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by motoxxxman (Post 51894265)
You don't need an aftermarket FPR, it won't affect anything. The only time you need to upgrade the FPR is if the fuel pump is big enough to overpower the stock FPR, causing higher than normal fuel pressures at low load. It will not affect top end high load fueling though.
If you've ever noticed, AEM FPR's come with multiple orifices. the one that comes installed is actually the same size as stock, which makes it not even do anything differently than stock except allow you to adjust fuel pressure. And the stock size is fine for a 255. The middle sized orifice is for 320-450lph pumps. The large orifice is for 450+lph pumps.

I know RC injectors all too well, and my guess is the injectors are your problem. They have TERRIBLE atomization, clog up easy, and become very uneven quite easily.
Sock may or not be getting clogged up, same for the fuel filter.

One question though; do you have an aftermarket relay setup for the fuel pump? It could just be as simple as the fuel pump not getting enough current through the stock wiring causing a loss of fuel flow/pressure. 255's recommend a relay kit, but isn't always necessary. 300+ usually requires a relay kit.
I agree!! I'm under 400hp and still use the OEM stock FPR with no issues. I would try a set of ID 1000 cc they are great injectors and have worked great for me. And I would deff look into using a proper fuel pump harness, I just ordered mine from Burton racing its plug and play! My buddy just tuned his Integra again but on high boost and the tuner advised his fuel pump voltage is dropping at high rpm and boost so he is also ordering the same fuel pump harness!


https://www.burton-racing.com/collec...mp-upgrade-kit

K20.ek 03-24-2019 04:02 PM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by wunfstgsr (Post 51895116)
I agree!! I'm under 400hp and still use the OEM stock FPR with no issues. I would try a set of ID 1000 cc they are great injectors and have worked great for me. And I would deff look into using a proper fuel pump harness, I just ordered mine from Burton racing its plug and play! My buddy just tuned his Integra again but on high boost and the tuner advised his fuel pump voltage is dropping at high rpm and boost so he is also ordering the same fuel pump harness!


https://www.burton-racing.com/collec...mp-upgrade-kit

thats what I figure I knew the stock fpr can hold up to my goals and didn’t want to buy aftermarket but since I already got it on order, so doesn’t hurt to install. I would have like to stay stock.

How would I know if my fuel pump isn’t pushing enough voltage.

motoxxxman 03-24-2019 04:41 PM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51895132)
How would I know if my fuel pump isn’t pushing enough voltage.
The only way to know for sure is to put a volt meter on the fuel pump wiring right at the sending unit and do a dyno pull while watching the meter.

Or you can just install a relay kit and know it's good.

wunfstgsr 03-24-2019 05:19 PM
Re: K20.ek's Fuel Pressure Regulator Turbo B-Series question??
 
Originally Posted by K20.ek (Post 51895132)



thats what I figure I knew the stock fpr can hold up to my goals and didn’t want to buy aftermarket but since I already got it on order, so doesn’t hurt to install. I would have like to stay stock.

How would I know if my fuel pump isn’t pushing enough voltage.
Well in some states like CA if a CHP sees a aftermarket FPR its a automatic reff ticket! how do I know? my dumb ass had a AEM FPR for no good reason and I ended up getting a ticket for it and had to convert my engine back to stock to pass there inspection. And it was fully built with a LHT JRSC so it was a PITA to go back to stock So now I rock the OEM with no worries on that.

You wont have full voltage with out the proper gauge wire or relay like mentioned. You can try a datalog and see if the voltage can display which im sure you can I just never tried. But the tuner will know how too. Just get the harness I posted and take care of that, All fuel pump manufactures require you to do this anyway this harness is real nice and simple and if you want 10% off use discount code "10PERCENT" Although on my setup I might be fine on the stock harness but im going to upgrade it anyway just to be safe, on my buddys turbo setup on low boost he did not have this issue but soon as he turned up the boost and rpm the voltage dropped and the tuner told him its time to upgrade the wiring.


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