Get off vtec's nuts and get the LS

 

hmm.............

how about you forget the D, F, and B series and go with the H series. Preludes rule all. Get the m2b4 transaxle with it and you're set. Boost that bitch - use the Goldseries pistons and some eagle rods - throw a nice size turbo on it, and you're good to go.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by daveG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

B18 + boost &gt; D16 + boost</TD></TR></TABLE>

You think?

I semi-built the engine in the SOHC... A6 block, LS rods, devcon epoxy, .25mm o/s PDN pistons, Z6 head, ported Y8 IM with 58mm LS TB... and had a pile of free D16 + turbo stuff given to me by fourteen different people... and bought an abandoned 88 Civic STD that's pretty clean... for $1500 total.

You can find LS swaps cheaper, but you really have to have your ear to the ground and most won't be fresh engines, or come with 1000 mile Clutchnet stg 3's (which was given to me because no one would buy it), etc.

If you want 300whp, don't worry about it and choose whatever.

 

how bout a h22 in a hatch= no handling wat so ever...by the way guys i heard that ppl with ls on boost have alot of traction problems

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tobe1424 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well im aiming somewhere between 300 and 400...well yes i know a b18 has more displacement than a d16 but one has vtec.. vtec helps u alot top end </TD></TR></TABLE>


cough cough..... VTEC in a D series isn't ****.

just let me inform you again


VTEC in a D SERIES IS NOT ****.

you have a turbo for acceleration and some top end. you should be more concerned about acceleration than top end. As long as your car can get to 155-160mph just fine, you'll be fine. Point being, races are pretty much based on who can get off the line the fastest and stay ahead. You have more than enough top end with or without vtec.


and just to get this point across to you also.


VTEC ***** up torque curves which creates less torque. VTEC was only meant for fuel consumption and passing power. that's all. SOHC VTEC motors blow donkey nuts for torque. The b18b will make plenty of torque and you still have the option of Ls-VTEC. You're torque numbers won't be so high but you'll have a lot more HP.


BEST BET.

B18b1-t

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tobe1424 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how bout a h22 in a hatch= no handling wat so ever...by the way guys i heard that ppl with ls on boost have alot of traction problems</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you have done any research at all on the H22a motor then you would realize that the H22 does NOT weigh more than 200lbs over a B series motor. So you making the statement that you cannot handle is just down right horse ****!

 

boost what u have unless your looking for serious power then go b18,

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayDiemB16aCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VTEC in a D SERIES IS NOT ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you mean VTEC isn't ****.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayDiemB16aCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">B18b1-t </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not that there is any difference between B18A1 and B18B1. You can point to the 90-91 small port heads, but Speed Phreak made 340 whp @ 12 psi on an unported '90 head with Web cams, only revving to 7000. Still stock valves, nothing o/s.



Ah, I can't look at that picture enough... especially since that head (cams) and blue valvecover now resides in my house.

Oh, yeah, B-series weighs 75 lbs more than D-series, and H-series another 40 lbs over that. H22 swap weighs a little more than a D15B7 mated to an automatic transmission, but the center of gravity for the unit is a couple inches higher. Nothing that ruins the ride, you just have to select swaybars and springs to suit.

edit: It can be argued the extra weight over the front end is worth having for FWD traction.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, you mean VTEC isn't ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayDiemB16aCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


cough cough..... VTEC in a D series isn't ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>

yea I said that

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You think?

I semi-built the engine in the SOHC... A6 block, LS rods, devcon epoxy, .25mm o/s PDN pistons, Z6 head, ported Y8 IM with 58mm LS TB... and had a pile of free D16 + turbo stuff given to me by fourteen different people... and bought an abandoned 88 Civic STD that's pretty clean... for $1500 total.

You can find LS swaps cheaper, but you really have to have your ear to the ground and most won't be fresh engines, or come with 1000 mile Clutchnet stg 3's (which was given to me because no one would buy it), etc.

If you want 300whp, don't worry about it and choose whatever.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If both are built, yeah I think the B18 will be better than the D16. The original poster said nothing about a budget so I didn't compare a stock B18 to a built D16. But I do agree, given a set amount of money, you can build the D16 for the cost of the B18 swap and probably put down more power.

 

Over 300 whp, I'd go B. The D-trans starts getting depressing at higher power levels.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Over 300 whp, I'd go B. The D-trans starts getting depressing at higher power levels.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

please explain -

the y8 has upgraded steel forks, and honestly have not heard of any moderate power limitations

platinum

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTC_CiViC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And if you'd ever really paid attention to the rocker setup on an LS, you'd prolly be scared to rev one high too! </TD></TR></TABLE>

true

on the SCCA and Grand Am cup events i have been to, and even my personal friend who owns a LS race car have had problems with the LS heads, even people i have met on the track.
on high rpm operation, the LS head valvetrain will more likely fail... what usually gives is the NUT on the rocker will come loose and fall somewhere inside the motor.
this is soo common, that last time we raced on Nov 19th on summit point WV, it happened to us, and 3 other people on the race track had spare nuts on their tool boxes for this same reason

anyways, i dont see why everyone bitches about torque this and torque that, when the SOHC make plenty tq too when boosted....
heres my graph to show 195.54 wtq at 10 psi

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayDiemB16aCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

. SOHC VTEC motors blow donkey nuts for torque. The b18b will make plenty of torque and you still have the option of Ls-VTEC. You're torque numbers won't be so high but you'll have a lot more HP.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

um, not to be a dick, but https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1468119.

sohcvtecs and ls's make close to the same #'s , it just takes the d16's a few more psi to get there, and even that is relative to turbo size and setup.


what car is this going into? a 2000lb hatch wont need as much tq and hp as a 2600lb teg. also, dont forget you have to get the power to the ground to get good times.

 

I say go b18. I started out with an LS and i continue to run one to this day Its true that sohc's can make a good bit of tq...but they usually make that tq with a small turbo at a higher psi.

With my completely stock LS i made 200hp and 186tq at 5.5psi using a 57trim t3/t04e. And that was with a leaking wastegate...i shoulda been holding 7psi which wouldve given me around 210-215hp and 190-195tq. I have friend with a highly modified greddy kit(only thing thats still used is manifold, turbo, bov) and he put 217hp and 200tq on 14.5psi. Sure it made more tq...but it also took almost 3 times the boost. I know the 2 turbos are apples to oranges...but its just for comparison.

BTW-im working on a way to keep those sorry *** stamped rockers in the b18 head...i plan on doing a little write up when im done....if it works

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayDiemB16aCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VTEC ***** up torque curves which creates less torque. VTEC was only meant for fuel consumption and passing power.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you aware of the extremes with cams, IE super-high lift/super-high duration cams in V8's? They loose PLENTY of low & mid-range torque for more on top. VTEC is what fights that - a low-lift/low-duration cam profile will give MUCH more torque down low (because it's most effecient at those rpm's, among other things), and the opposite is true for a high-lift/high-duration cam profile for the vtec side. You also get the benifit of slight swirling due to unequal lift numbers on the sohc low side. Ever notice how, for a good example, the stage-2 Skunk2 cams (very commonly used) have a low-cam thats amost exactly like stock, and a high-cam with MUCH more lift/duration?


Things being equal, I'd get the B18B1, boost it, then build it, then do LS/V. But in my case, things aren't equal. First I need to use half what I paid for the motor for special mounts. Then I need to choose to go with a tranny geared like a sohc's, or find an already rare jdm or gsr cable tranny and risk getting a bad one, or pay more than the cost of the long block for a cable-to-hydro kit.

I do like the torque the b18 gives below 3k (vs the 1.6 sohc), but besides that - that's the only real benifit when put into an EF. Most Hondas are light enough where low-end torque doesn't matter, or you can downshift (or maybe slip the clutch) to bring the motor into it's powerband. <U>The bigger question would be - why did you even let your car fall out of boost in the first place?</U>

ibtl

 

i made alot of torque on my d!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTC_CiViC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That's a rather silly contrast. The key here is RELATIVITY. 244cc means alot when you're comparing engines this small, infact we're talking about what.. an aprox. 20% increase in displcement from a D16? You don't think 20% more air and 20% more fuel mean something?

The issue here is boost pressure. I have no issues with pushing a stock B18B to 15psi and see 300+whp, but you and I both know that even with the same setup, a D16 will need ALOT more air to see 300whp in stock form (if it'll even get there), so no.. it's NOT equal at all.

Like I said, all things equal, the B-series is the power maker, period.</TD></TR></TABLE>

20% increase in displacement does not mean a 20% increase in air and fuel in a forced induction vehicle. I'm not sure how you figure a D Series needs "ALOT" more air to make 300whp. The amount of horsepower you make is relative to the amount of air the engine combusts. An engine that consumes 40 lbs/min of air will produce approximately 400hp (crank) no matter what the displacement is. That's why a turbo that flows 40 lbs/min will only be good for 400hp whether it's on a D16 or B18. The only difference is that the B18 will need slightly less psi to reach that turbo's maximum flow.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BrokeAssWhiteboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">tell that to anybody that went from a 1.8L to a 2.0L and you will probably get laughed at </TD></TR></TABLE>

I own both a 2.0L Honda and a 1.6L Honda (see sig). Do I sound like I'm laughing? Even though the F20C produces more peak torque than my D16 did before it was turbo, I would honestly say the D16 felt more torquey in the low rpm range than the F20 did.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanCivic2000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

20% increase in displacement does not mean a 20% increase in air and fuel in a forced induction vehicle. I'm not sure how you figure a D Series needs "ALOT" more air to make 300whp. The amount of horsepower you make is relative to the amount of air the engine combusts. An engine that consumes 40 lbs/min of air will produce approximately 400hp (crank) no matter what the displacement is. That's why a turbo that flows 40 lbs/min will only be good for 400hp whether it's on a D16 or B18. The only difference is that the B18 will need slightly less psi to reach that turbo's maximum flow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The point here was the increase in volume inherit when you increase the displacement as much as 20%. Yes I'm well aware the increase in fuel/air consumption doesn't increase at a linear rate with an F.I. application with such variables as compressor effieciency, IC effeciency etc.., but the point wasn't to get into a discussion of fluid dynamics. The point is, all other criteria being equal, the increase of displacement from 1600 to 1800cc is a noteworthy increase, especially in an F.I. application where the rate of flow increases dramatically with added pressure ( up to a point).

Again, you have an LS and a D16 with identical turbo setups and what do you get? A typical LS @ 10psi will put down what.. 240-260whp? The typical D16 will put down.. 190-220whp?

The LS will make more power, more torque and be less prone to premature breakdown as a result of the power made at a particular level of pressure, it's nothing new.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Things being equal, I'd get the B18B1, boost it, then build it, then do LS/V. But in my case, things aren't equal. First I need to use half what I paid for the motor for special mounts. Then I need to choose to go with a tranny geared like a sohc's, or find an already rare jdm or gsr cable tranny and risk getting a bad one, or pay more than the cost of the long block for a cable-to-hydro kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

First, why the hell would you get a cable tranny when you are already using a b18b1. The only reason you should use the cable tranny is if you have a b18a. Second, why not a b16a tranny. Gearing ratios are shorter and has decent accerlation. Gs-R would be a good idea, better than b16.

Second, Why in the world would you "Boost it" then "Build it"??????? Wouldn't you want to build your motor before if goes in to handle the extremities of boost? I.e. Sleeves or blockguard, Low Comp Pistons and Forged Rods, and low comp head gasket! Why would you wait for it to be in your car to then take it back out to "Build IT" to throw it back in. Why do double the work?

Third, Fu*k Skunk2's stage 2 camshafts. IMO I would use ITR ValveTrain on a b18b using of course the LS-VTEC option. The lobes on the cams have such an aggressive lift and duration on them than most found out there. ITR make up a lot more torque and as I stated earlier VTEC was only meant for Fuel Consumption. That was it's main purpose. But enough about VTEC.

IMO you're better off with the B18b. You can find a whole swap out there for under a grand and build it and produce way more power than you're little engine that couldn't. Sorry but after experience with D series I had enough, their bottom ends are not as strong as a B and the potential just isn't as high.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanCivic2000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I own both a 2.0L Honda and a 1.6L Honda (see sig). Do I sound like I'm laughing? Even though the F20C produces more peak torque than my D16 did before it was turbo, I would honestly say the D16 felt more torquey in the low rpm range than the F20 did.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's not a comparison. You're talking about two designs of completley different natures. Obviously the premise of the D-series design was based on fuel economy and drivability for the specific buyer group the Civic was intended for. Buffy the high school junior doesn't care about top end power and or peak torque numbers. The design and flow characteristics of the head, IM, and grind of the camshaft of these two motors are of two different natures.

You want to compare a 2.0L and a 1.6L or the same 'kind', compare the B20Z to the D16Y, or even the F20C to the B16A.

There is no comparrison.

 

or even h22a vs d15 or 16. That H22a will toast you every time boosted or not.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JayDiemB16aCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or even h22a vs d15 or 16. That H22a will toast you every time boosted or not.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ummm i pulled on a turbo h22 in a teg with mi d16z6 then seen him at the track and trapped 3 mph higher then him

ide go D......... its always nice to be the underdog and beat the **** outta others who think they got **** cause they got 2 cams

-mike

--------l see my sig
--------l
-------\/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTC_CiViC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Again, you have an LS and a D16 with identical turbo setups and what do you get? A typical LS @ 10psi will put down what.. 240-260whp? The typical D16 will put down.. 190-220whp?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, but my point is the only difference is you run a couple more psi on the D16 to reach the same power. In the end when you max the same turbo out on an D16 and LS you will end up with approx the same peak hp, but the LS will make it a few psi sooner. Does it really matter whether you run 17psi or 20psi? That's what it comes down to. BTW, there are alot of D16's that produce more than 220 on 10 psi. Mine being one of them.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTC_CiViC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You want to compare a 2.0L and a 1.6L or the same 'kind', compare the B20Z to the D16Y, or even the F20C to the B16A. </TD></TR></TABLE>

How is a B20Z anything like a D16Y?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civic93@8psi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

ummm i pulled on a turbo h22 in a teg with mi d16z6 then seen him at the track and trapped 3 mph higher then him

ide go D......... its always nice to be the underdog and beat the **** outta others who think they got **** cause they got 2 cams

-mike</TD></TR></TABLE>

must have been the driver!