Muck I think you've just outdone Honda engineering this time. Maybe time for a true billet block and head lol

(P.S. I have access to a 5 axis mill, 3/4 axis mill, and various lathes )

 

Would grade 10.9 bolts require a different torque to get the same pre-load / clamping force as the oem bolt??

I believe theres a very fine margin / range within a given torque, to achieve the right oil clearances on the cam journals..?

 

Nope, each bolt is torqued based off of a rating of bolt thread diameter and should be close to or slightly above what the oem suggests. The only issue with grade 8 bolts is they stretch less when torqued to yield

There's a huge chart I found somewhere that gives torque value for bolts of all sizes, regardless of material

 

Hi, I know what the manual states but have you checked with Honda to confirm the torque because manuals have be known to be wrong, also do the bolts being supplied confirm to the SAE standards given in the workshop manual?

regards,

Kev

 

I've had this problem several times. I've started torquing these bolts to 17ft/lbs with blue locktite. I did however luck up and get the old style black ones from Acura when I ordered 100 of them.

 

Hi, I have just spoken with a friend of mine who worked for Honda UK and he advised that the torque for the camshaft bearing caps is:- 8mm bolt is 14ft/lbs and the older 6mm bolts are 104 in-lbs

hope the above helps you guys.

Kev

 

i had this problem occur on a engine i was working on for a friend 2 years ago. he bought the motor complete and i tore it down to inspect it and when we were putting the cam cap bolt's in (which were new oem bolts) and tightening them down to 16ft/lbs it seemed like none were clicking off on the torque wrench, which had me thinking they were maybe pulling the threads out of the head backed everything out found the majority of them were stretched ... so we grab some older ones out of a spare head and everyone of them clicked of at 16ft/lbs with zero issues

 

Anyone of u guys know where i can get a set of ARP cam cap bolts for the B-Series VTEC head ?
HITECH Products has a cam girdle with some good ARP bolts, i'm trying to find a set like that but no luck.

 

This is strange. I've never had a vtec cam cap bolt break stretch or strip on me and I don't use a torque wrench when assembling. I tighten mine to feel. Years ago with my built ls bead I tightens all to spec and they all stripped or broke. Since Then I always tighten any cam cap bolts to feel. Maybe that's why I haven't had one stretch ? For those of you stretching bolts why not step up to a 12.9 bolt?

I have a new head now. I will be checking the bolts on this head upon assembly

Boostallways just call arp and order the bolts you want in the length and size a dn thread pitch you need.

 

Idk the size

 

Take one to the hardware store if you done have tools to measure the bolts and match it up

 

muckman im using the same 85lb supertech springs but with smaller cams (ctr's). also my head is a 91 so i likely have the old bolts

so when did honda switch from using the old bolts to the new ones?

 

This

 

I've had the same issue on a few occasions. I just torque them at 16-18lbs like jdogg. Always works for me.

 

I looked at another manual, for the DA integra. For the GSR, B17 engine, which uses the same bolts, it lists the torque spec at 16 ft-lbs. I would suggest torquing somewhere between 14 and 16 to avoid stretching.

 

I've got access to the Honda manuals and they all suggest 16ft/lbs for any of the b-series vtec engines

 

I'm liking the cam girdle

Should help a lot with aggressive cams and high rpm. Also increases oiling so cam lobe and lifter wear should be reduced as well, something aggressive cams have an issue with since they can sling oil off the lobe surface

 

I am not sure about what manuals you have, but here are a few that say different:

 

For those who couldn't see the address on the product

http://www.hitechledproducts.com/pro...de2819685fe159

At $400, I doubt if H-Ters will invest in this simply because they have differing ft/lbs of torque for some cam bolts. ARPs are not needed in this case at all.

 

This is absolutely a cam bolt issue, the zinc bolts are not as hard as the black bolts. Marcin can vouch for this as well as D-Rob. When we were testing edelbrock cams D-Rob was unable to get a zinc bolt to TQ properly and since I have seen this before I asked him to remove the bolt and look at the threads and sure enough you could actually see where the bolt had stretched. Replaced it with a black bolt and has not had another issue.

 

Yep zinc coated bolts are not normally hardened as I stated. And the 10 on the top does not always stand for the grade of the bolt.
Still looking for those bolt Muckman, found the box they should be in.

 

I will have to admit that 90% of the time I will tighten those and most other bolts on engines by feel only. I guess it's just something you get used from putting stuff together after 20 years or so. I have found in my travels many of the cam cap and valve cover bolts to be stretched and over tightened by people who do not have the feel or comfort of where they should be. Technically using a torque wrench should be the ideal method but there are so many variables from lubrication to torgue range on the tool.

 

My 1994 Integra Service manual is a First Edition published 07/93.

For a B18C1 says in two separate locations,
8mm bolts 26 Nm (2.7kgfm, 20 lbsft)
6mm bolts 9.8Nm (1.0kgfm, 7.2 lbsft)

Never had any issues with those torque values with the black cam bolts I have. Always came up to torque, no getting soft.

It would not be hard to source some flange head bolts of the correct dimensions and in 10.9 or 12.9.

Or ARP part number 661-1007 is a 5 pack of M8x1.25 50mm long with a 10mm flanged head. Chromoly with a black oxide finish. 170,000 psi yeild strength, just shy of a 12.9 bolt at 176,946 psi. That sounds like the winning combination.

 

I'm going to be "that guy" for a minute. You know, the one who bumps a decades old thread?

I can confirm that the newer OEM zinc style B-series cam cap fasteners are softer than the darker colored ones from the 90's. I'm including a side by side comparison pic of these M8 camshaft cap bolts. The newer fastener on the left, older darker color fastener is on the right is from the 90's JDM head I've had forever. The thread stretch on the zinc fastener is clearly visible near the upper part of the threads. This bolt is not even that old, but surely can't stand up to the 20 ft/lbs called for in the manual.

I'm either going to replace with new zinc ones and just reduce the torque to say 16, or get the ARP fasteners (661-1007) and stick with the Honda suggested torque values. Not sure which way I'll go this time. I know these engines are getting to be considered geriatric, but I just can't help but love the engineering and rebuild-ability of these even today. I've rebuilt my B-series block maybe 3 times in the last 15 years. Little things like this are surely something Honda engineering couldn't have foreseen. We've absolutely used their product well beyond it's intended timeline. I like our approach here - we identify these fixes as a group and move forward with better engines, and better herd knowledge.

PS - I'm 90% sure the markings on the head, although they LOOK like the number 10 are not, but some other manufacturer ID markings and make no sense to us mere mortals.

 

@Pepe14 Just replaced his with the zinc plated bolts. May be worth inspecting.