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Balor_Gr 04-24-2017 09:37 AM

Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
Hallo guys after quite some time i finished my del slow turboing the stock B16 engine.
Part List:
Turbo TD05h-152G6-12T (evo X stock turbo. Can deliver around 43 lbs/min.Title was changed to the wrong turbo not by me. Corrected by mods)
Garrett 0.4 bar actuator (~6psi)
EVO 9 fuel pump
440cc injectors
Stock block
Stock head
3" turbo to tail pipe
~10.8:1 compression ratio

I had this idea of keeping the stock 4-2 cast iron (super durable) manifold and just use 2 pipes that will continue from there
to a divided turbo. EVO X turbo looked good for this idea and i was thinking well this turbo might even spool early like 3500-4000 rpm(...) since its a divided turbo setup.
My target was "lets keep it around 230 to the crank for start.Maybe 250 to the tire later. if everything goes allright"

The oem MHI actuator was super tought and i wouldnt be able to drop boost below 15 psi.So i got a 0.4 bar (6psi) garrett actuator.

EDIT: You can also have the internal wastegate dump the exhaust gases as an external wastegate with evo turbos because exhaust and the wastegate gases are divided.(look picture 2 on the ground)

All cool and straight to the tuning on the street with crome gold with a tuner friend of mine.
DEAR GOD i step on the gas and we were both like WTF 1 psi on 2500rpm , 6 psi on 3000 rpm ! A big smile came to my face but not for a long time: will the engine last with
such a low end spooler turbo and low rpm torque? Remember engine is stock.

While cruising/daily driving is a dream, half throttle boosting at 2,5k rpm is a TOTALY different experience.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...57a982ca90.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...af44a8fc6f.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...8f22cb8846.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...620b6cb1df.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...488c1eee7e.jpg


* * * Ill have to ask you now guys.:

1) Will 250 whp be a tough target for the stock engine with so much low end? Right now at 6 psi the car is around 200 hp
So i will need to raise boost to ~ 10 psi. I know boost is not the problem but it will push the low end torque even more.
2) Maybe i should get GSR/ITR cams to get just more mid / hight power without raising too much boost to protect the low end.
3)Maybe it doest matter at all?Just crank the boost till it hits 250 to the tire?

Edit: ADDED VIDEOS
Mind that I use 205/45r17 tyres so reading is like 7-8% lower...

boosted94gsr 04-24-2017 09:50 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
Very interesting setup. That turbo is stupid responsive on my evo x at 24psi ;) lol.

You will be just fine at that power level with a stock block. Tune it and enjoy.

k20z1ej1 04-24-2017 10:54 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
^ agreed. most b series, assuming they are healthy, are safe to around 300 whp. its very cool that you used the oem exhaust manifold, ive always wondered if that was possible

sleepencivic 04-24-2017 11:50 AM

Re: My Del dol turbo build.(AKA: dear god this turbo, what i do now)
 
Way back when... people used to use the Hf manifolds for d-series builds with adapters to mount the turbo right onto the cast manifold. A lot of the the GM guys still us the truck log manifolds to implement the same concept.



Originally Posted by k20z1ej1 (Post 51264668)
^ agreed. most b series, assuming they are healthy, are safe to around 300 whp. its very cool that you used the oem exhaust manifold, ive always wondered if that was possible


Cabletie 04-25-2017 06:14 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
that's an awesome solution! I have the same turbo on my stock b16, making 290hp at 10 psi, and you can see the power band from the graph in my thread . Since you don't have detonation you are good to go!

Balor_Gr 04-25-2017 09:12 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Cabletie (Post 51265283)
that's an awesome solution! I have the same turbo on my stock b16, making 290hp at 10 psi, and you can see the power band from the graph in my thread . Since you don't have detonation you are good to go!

Haha you have the evo X turbo too right? With stock cams 290hp?Somehow my car feels like 200hp at 5-6 psi.

TheShodan 04-25-2017 09:35 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51265422)
Haha you have the evo X turbo too right? With stock cams 290hp?Somehow my car feels like 200hp at 5-6 psi.

No. he has the 16G6 from the Evolution 8-9 IIRC

LightningTeg 04-25-2017 09:50 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
This kicks ass.

Cabletie 04-25-2017 11:05 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
Yes sorry is from an evo 8. At 10 psi without water meth I'm at 250hp. Stock cams

Balor_Gr 04-26-2017 12:42 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by TheShodan (Post 51265436)
No. he has the 16G6 from the Evolution 8-9 IIRC

Yeah for what ever reason my title was changed to a turbo i dont use >.< haha.Probably by a mod Corrected now


Originally Posted by Cabletie (Post 51265516)
Yes sorry is from an evo 8. At 10 psi without water meth I'm at 250hp. Stock cams

Una fatsa una razza :)

Anyone has a clue?

1) Will 250 whp be a tough target for the stock engine with so much low end? Right now at 6 psi the car is around 200 hp
So i will need to raise boost to ~ 10 psi. I know boost is not the problem but it will push the low end torque even more.
2) Maybe i should get GSR/ITR cams to get just more mid / hight power without raising too much boost to protect the low end.
3)Maybe it doest matter at all?Just crank the boost till it hits 250 to the tire?

LightningTeg 04-26-2017 03:00 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51265925)
Yeah for what ever reason my title was changed to a turbo i dont use >.< haha.Probably by a mod


Una fatsa una razza :)

Anyone has a clue?

Your good. Just keep timing low to prevent knock. High load / low RPM is hard on the rods/bearings

ssmrico 04-26-2017 05:20 AM

re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
very nice

B and B 04-26-2017 08:34 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo 16G6 B16 turbo build results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51265925)
Yeah for what ever reason my title was changed to a turbo i dont use >.< haha.Probably by a mod

lol, mod fail

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/man-...k-46926226.jpg

Chance EG 04-26-2017 11:28 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
Very cool, and similar to what I'm hoping to get with my build.

I'll be using a ~10.5 CR, probably actually starting with a B16 as well before moving up to a built B20. Planning on using the new generation GTX2860R. I've seen videos of this turbo where it sounds as if it's producing boost just at idle...

The instantaneous spool/boost like what you were describing for daily driving must be amazing.

Balor_Gr 04-27-2017 02:13 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Chance EG (Post 51266578)
Very cool, and similar to what I'm hoping to get with my build.

I'll be using a ~10.5 CR, probably actually starting with a B16 as well before moving up to a built B20. Planning on using the new generation GTX2860R. I've seen videos of this turbo where it sounds as if it's producing boost just at idle...

The instantaneous spool/boost like what you were describing for daily driving must be amazing.

Imo GTX2860R will spool slower from an evo turbo on a 1-4 2-3 divided manifold.

TheShodan might unswer this but is it a true twin scroll if the gases are divided all the way to the turbine blades?Cause thats what exoX turbine housing is.Divided from the intake, divided wastegate exit and divided all the way to the tip of the turbine blades.Also casting looks SUPER quality.

TheShodan 04-27-2017 06:58 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51267019)
Imo GTX2860R will spool slower from an evo turbo on a 1-4 2-3 divided manifold.

TheShodan might unswer this but is it a true twin scroll if the gases are divided all the way to the turbine blades?Cause thats what exoX turbine housing is.Divided from the intake, divided wastegate exit and divided all the way to the tip of the turbine blades.Also casting looks SUPER quality.

In essence yes. A true twin scroll is going to be divided entirely throughout the turbine housing volute. This is best for smaller sized turbos, and not large ones over GT35R size. So, don't get fooled with a divided turbine housing vs. a twin-scroll divided turbine housing.

Here's a small little blurb illustrating how a true twin scroll changes the behaviour of smaller turbochargers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...lowHousing.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...bineVolute.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nlgevsTwin.jpg

I've found that in most cases, when twin-scroll technology is utilized, it is for the creation of an environment of more efficient exhaust energy streamlining in an effort to create more torque for a given application, and not for more overall top end power. That's why they should be limited in their size use for small to mid-framed turbochargers and the relative size of the exhaust wheel has to be taken into account. Sadly I go through this argument with the Evolution guys in the U.S. that still confuse the terminology (Thanks, Full-Race circa 2004 :( ) and try to use divided housings with large turbine wheels, call them "twin-scrolls", get more peak power (due to the larger volute size, obviously), but no change in torque.

In just about every case where I have to use a turbine wheel that is about 68mm or less and a person wants to use divided housing in a larger A/R thinking it is a "twin-scroll", I always recommend to go down a notch to an open volute turbine housing in a smaller size using that same turbine wheel. You'll see much better torque response, and overall powerband when doing it that way. So, if you're ever in a situation in which you have a choice in turbine wheel size or changing the A/R of the turbine housing... stick to the turbine wheel change first, then go to a different turbine housing volute size if needed.

That's pretty much it. :shrug:



Don't discount the GTX2860R, as it is an extremely fast responder for its size, whether using a twin scroll turbine housing or not. But with anything larger, there is the risk of a bit of responsiveness. The key is to find a balance in size, and behaviour.

Balor_Gr 04-28-2017 04:22 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by TheShodan (Post 51267251)
In essence yes. A true twin scroll is going to be divided entirely throughout the turbine housing volute. This is best for smaller sized turbos, and not large ones over GT35R size. So, don't get fooled with a divided turbine housing vs. a twin-scroll divided turbine housing.

Here's a small little blurb illustrating how a true twin scroll changes the behaviour of smaller turbochargers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...lowHousing.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...bineVolute.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nlgevsTwin.jpg

I've found that in most cases, when twin-scroll technology is utilized, it is for the creation of an environment of more efficient exhaust energy streamlining in an effort to create more torque for a given application, and not for more overall top end power. That's why they should be limited in their size use for small to mid-framed turbochargers and the relative size of the exhaust wheel has to be taken into account. Sadly I go through this argument with the Evolution guys in the U.S. that still confuse the terminology (Thanks, Full-Race circa 2004 :( ) and try to use divided housings with large turbine wheels, call them "twin-scrolls", get more peak power (due to the larger volute size, obviously), but no change in torque.

In just about every case where I have to use a turbine wheel that is about 68mm or less and a person wants to use divided housing in a larger A/R thinking it is a "twin-scroll", I always recommend to go down a notch to an open volute turbine housing in a smaller size using that same turbine wheel. You'll see much better torque response, and overall powerband when doing it that way. So, if you're ever in a situation in which you have a choice in turbine wheel size or changing the A/R of the turbine housing... stick to the turbine wheel change first, then go to a different turbine housing volute size if needed.

That's pretty much it. :shrug:



Don't discount the GTX2860R, as it is an extremely fast responder for its size, whether using a twin scroll turbine housing or not. But with anything larger, there is the risk of a bit of responsiveness. The key is to find a balance in size, and behaviour.

This can be huge discussion.But at least i can speak the same language with someone.
I agree with you i believe.I was allways saying that the high speed exhaust gasses(low a/r) with bigger lever (bigger exhaust wheel radius) works the best.
I was about to get a custom turbo with 8cm hx40 turbine wheel some years ago when i wanted 450++ whp on premium pump gas.But the project was canceled.
But full divided setups have many advantages too if youre willing to pay.
No cross cylinder contamination,
you can retard the exhaust cam without fear,
The big one for me: Less exhaust channel diameter fluctuation.That 4-1 collector on sinlge entry manifolds destroys exhaust pulses since the gases fly unguided and suddenly find a large opening that gases are free to expand chaotic( turbulance)
and cool down loosing energy.And yes you are correct all these bad things fade away as more stronger pulses come at shorter intervals(higher rpm).Divided NEVER happened for top end.
Its the big A/R imo that fuarks things on bigger divided turbos not the bigger wheel.Plus one man's big turbo is other man's small turbo :) its about the combination.
But this discusion will never end.

TheShodan 04-28-2017 06:07 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51268078)
This can be huge discussion.But at least i can speak the same language with someone.
I agree with you i believe.I was allways saying that the high speed exhaust gasses(low a/r) with bigger lever (bigger exhaust wheel radius) works the best.
I was about to get a custom turbo with 8cm hx40 turbine wheel some years ago when i wanted 450++ whp on premium pump gas.But the project was canceled.
But full divided setups have many advantages too if youre willing to pay.
No cross cylinder contamination,
you can retard the exhaust cam without fear,
The big one for me: Less exhaust channel diameter fluctuation.That 4-1 collector on sinlge entry manifolds destroys exhaust pulses since the gases fly unguided and suddenly find a large opening that gases are free to expand chaotic( turbulance)
and cool down loosing energy.And yes you are correct all these bad things fade away as more stronger pulses come at shorter intervals(higher rpm).Divided NEVER happened for top end.
Its the big A/R imo that fuarks things on bigger divided turbos not the bigger wheel.Plus one man's big turbo is other man's small turbo :) its about the combination.
But this discusion will never end.

I think you're absolutely correct on all counts. It's nice that someone else understands that the use of the correct combination for many situations outweigh the hype and utility of exotic (or near-exotic) styled turbine housings with larger A/Rs.
Unfortunately, the masses in many turbo circles are similar to an Enzyte advertisement; Their belief is "no matter what anyone tells you, size always matters." It really doesn't unless you're talking about a specific form of racing (mainly drag-racing in the U.S.), but many here like to think that it always does.
http://manwhorepod.com/wp-content/up.../02/enzyte.png
https://viandalife.com/images/mainsh...velty-Gift.png

Balor_Gr 04-29-2017 11:46 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
Amen.Bigger is better #1 rule.
The simple way is most of the times better but sometimes people want to differ too much.

Do you have any clue is GSR cams break the static compression a little bit more from the stock b16 cams?
Or i have to get the 300$ R cams to break that 10.8 - 11 compression i have?

JKaze 04-29-2017 09:49 PM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51269223)
Do you have any clue is GSR cams break the static compression a little bit more from the stock b16 cams?
Or i have to get the 300$ R cams to break that 10.8 - 11 compression i have?

Changing a camshaft does not affect static but dynamic compression, what you probably mean. I made some calculations so you got clue how much cam swap affect. Just disclaimer, there's always variables like real exact static cr, camshaft timing events, lash adjustment and so on. Best way is measure everything, no assumings or calculators.

But with 10.8:1 static CR and stock intake cam you are somewhere on +10:1 DCR, changing to "GSR" drop it to +9.9:1 and "Type-R" 9.7:1.

Balor_Gr 04-30-2017 07:56 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by JKaze (Post 51269477)
Changing a camshaft does not affect static but dynamic compression, what you probably mean. I made some calculations so you got clue how much cam swap affect. Just disclaimer, there's always variables like real exact static cr, camshaft timing events, lash adjustment and so on. Best way is measure everything, no assumings or calculators.

But with 10.8:1 static CR and stock intake cam you are somewhere on +10:1 DCR, changing to "GSR" drop it to +9.9:1 and "Type-R" 9.7:1.

Yeah i was speaking about dynamic.I just use a direct translation from greek ,haha, about lowering the static by breaking it with bigger duration cams.
The thing i didnt understand tho is why you are refering only to the intake cam. Maybe i make a combination of stock intake cam with GSR/ITR exhaust cam?

Edit : ->>> I added videos to the first post

JKaze 04-30-2017 10:49 PM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51269579)
The thing i didnt understand tho is why you are refering only to the intake cam.

Because closing event of intake valve is what matter when calculating dynamic compression ratio. Of course, it is still just "static" calculated value which doesn't count volumetric efficiency which can instead increase (higher BMEP).

Balor_Gr 05-03-2017 01:27 PM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by JKaze (Post 51269953)
Because closing event of intake valve is what matter when calculating dynamic compression ratio. Of course, it is still just "static" calculated value which doesn't count volumetric efficiency which can instead increase (higher BMEP).

Look i was thinking about sending some air out via overlap.
Do you have any clu about overlap differences among b16/gsr/itr cams?

TheShodan 05-04-2017 06:49 AM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51269223)
Amen.Bigger is better #1 rule.
The simple way is most of the times better but sometimes people want to differ too much.

That's not what I said. In fact, I stated the opposite. Re-read that again, my friend. ;)


Originally Posted by Balor_Gr (Post 51269223)
Do you have any clue is GSR cams break the static compression a little bit more from the stock b16 cams?
Or i have to get the 300$ R cams to break that 10.8 - 11 compression i have?

They don't change your static compression. that's the quench pads of the GS-R vs. the B16 head.

boostgoblin 05-06-2017 01:30 PM

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 
Glad to see someone do this...I had a setup like this in mind, especially since Evo turbos are very responsive.


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