Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Ferrea is a renowned company for over 60 years. You can never go wrong with their products

Going that high on seat pressure is a terrible idea, and all they'll do is say you did something wrong with the installation if you did it, and leave you standing there. That's terrible advice. I'd expect better from 4Piston. that's actually disappointing :rolleyes:
Stick with the 70lbs seat pressure. They're thinking this is a full-racing application all the time. I'm sorry, that's just going to cause unnecessary wear on the retainers going that high. Even on GSCs, Kelfords and the like I wouldn't use 110lb seat pressure. 91lbs at maximum.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Yeah thats what i was thinking.Something is wrong with this.
The problem lies on the 80 to 95 lbs gap on ferrea.
The only 80lbs spring thats considered turbo by them is the
S10104 - Seat Pressure 80 lb Max Lift 13.5 PAC enhanced Alloy turbo
But i cant seem to find at an ok price.
The other 80lbs s10070 everybody is selling is not advertised as turbo valve spring by ferrea.
Dam id like em to have 85 lbs just for the peace of mind.B16 altho it will be 84x77 it will require a lot of boost later...More boost = stronger spring required.

Whats the biggest cam you would run with 80lbs and 9500 rpm on 25 -30 lbs ?

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

What is a "turbo valvespring" anyway? Valve spring is just a valve spring to me. There's a Ferrea
's Beehive-spring which is rated 70lbs at seat, can't remember exact, measured tensions right now.

It, how "big" cam you can run with some specific spring tension depend engine max revolutions, highest velocity at closing side (negative mm/deg^) of cam and active valvetrain mass.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

I can speculate a lot what it is a turbo valve spring.But im not sure about anything. Im suspecting ferrea will not sell BS namings :)
Be hives are kinda small imo for what i need. And i didnt find many happy customers. Ill pass behives for this build.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

I've never seen a valve spring sold as "turbo". The spring pressure is really all that matters.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Look 4-5 posts above i posted a pic. The 95 and the 80 "PAC" are turbo springs. Something on the design or at the material. Ill post a question on their mail tomorrow. Id call them but you know calling them from greece(2 sec delay)+my strange accect well it wont go to well. ☺
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/819x861/80-ferrea_b_series_6744ddafbe5845ec0e9daa6c32fb32deb3 f5c390.jpg

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

You're thinking way to hard with this, comparing advertising naming conventions, with an actual type. What one company years ago would call a "turbo cam", today would simply be a valvespring. This because retrofitted turbo systems weren't as common as they are from 25 years ago.

Spring seat pressure is based upon the camshaft profile and Max RPM used. If you're staying with the GS-R camshaft and nothing else, stay with the 80lbs or closer to OEM spring seat pressure.

Reviews mean nothing in the grand scheme, especially quick reviews from some retailer. Unless they make a thread on a specific forum about that specific part in great detail, Don't take them that seriously.

No need to call from Greece. Ferrea is the way to go. That company also uses the oem retainer keepers.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Well, there is nothing what to speculate :). It just spring steel wire and it does not know is there turbo or not. I don't care what names some marketing guys are inventing, it is product itself and technical specifications which matter.

I checked my notes and S2014 Beehive spring gives little more pressure to the seat (approx 77lbs) than what is advertised value. Of course springs wear, so it can get lower by time and miles.

I have just good experiences Ferrea's products, also Beehive-springs. I have use them with some allmotor cams (267°@.050", 0.492” IN / 263°".050", 0.474” EX) when highest closing side acceleration was 0,00534mm/deg^2 and active valvetrain mass 140,35g. With safety factor, it allowed spin the engine to the 9500rpm, which was more than enough because it made peak power ~8300rpm.

And also remember when read unhappy customer reviews, there's always possibility of user error. There a is big, loud group of people in this world who don't know what they are doing and when something bad happens, they blame others. So...

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Like a other members said as long as you stay with stock cam and slightely higher rpms, there is no need for harder valve springs, just brand new stock valve springs if you are rebuilding your engine (You can't trust a 20 years old valve spring).

I can see your need for searching new things and thinking it too much. Thats a good thing to do but you don't wanna "hurt" your wallet. A general rule on tuning a street car is to use the best cost effective materials and methods that allready worked in same car. You will try the extreme parts if the car is supposed to make the ultimade drag car, etc.

You will find a lot of people that will be lying about the purchaged parts because no one wants to admit he made the wrong choise. You will also find many professional car tunners who want to sell everything no matter if needed.

Critical question is how to understand which one is lying or not? The answer comes from multi cross examining the facts and understanding the motives.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

I kinda feel sorry because i started small and setup will go big, all this and i confused you.
For this turbo setup ill stay with GSR
At 5-6-7 months later ill go will bigger turbo/mani/cams. Id like to buy once.Thats all.
Long story short i can get the ferrea 95 later if i get lets say GSCT1 or PRO1 or the 176-T.
But if i can save 400euros and buy once valve springs and just swap cams it will be better.

Long question short. Would you run S2 Tuner 1 on 80 lbs? Probably yes.
But what about the big boys tho?

Look at the naming there IS a difference on the 80 lbs side :)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...bf42891ab8.jpg

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Ferrea has used the same old catalog set for over 20 years. They didn't change the naming conventions simply because that's more time that they had to work on the catalog. That's just the way catalogs work. They took that one and simply scanned it to put online. Sorry, but we, (nor they) even use a "turbo spring" anymore. They just go by the part number, and they type.

You're going to spend twice, when you change your camshafts. PERIOD. That is unless you stay with something more mild that is going to work with both your GS-R Camshaft and something like a Tuner 1, which was designed to be just a bit higher profile than a Type R. The valvesprings for their Tuner 1, Tuner 2, & PRO 1 , all use the 80lbs seat pressure due to the camshaft profile.

When going to something like a GSCT1 (which has not only a different lobe profile, but also a different material content) you're going to need to go between 85lbs-91lbs seat pressure for those to work properly without valve float. Could you use the 85lbs-91lbs seat pressure on a GS-R camshaft for now? Sure, at least for a while before you start wearing the camshaft lobe down a bit. But it's better to use the valvetrain for the camshaft you're going to eventually use, and not for the one you're using now, unless you don't mind changing out to a new valvetrain later. (Which many people in both the states and Europe do.. Europe isn't that special, many who are well-invested into these projects will gladly change out the right parts if it suits their purpose, VATs, import-duties and all. :shrug:).

However, in your case, if you truly plan to run a GSC or a Kelford, or even a PRO 1 later, the use the 85lbs-91lbs seat pressure. But be committed to those camshaft profiles, (and the turbochargers that they work best with. I.e. The Pro1 is best used for turbochargers 61lbs/min+ Like a GT35R, while the other two companies can have a wide variety of lower-sized turbochargers that work with their camshaft profiles.)

We're saying this from a practical knowledge and experience point of view, and not from paper. As a welder, if you gave advice to someone wanting to weld, would you have us just believe what a Miller manual would say on what you need to do? or would you have that person talk with an experienced welder/fabricator to tell him/her that what's in the manual is more of a guideline, and get the true information from a realistic & practical perspective? We're doing the same here for you, except with exhaust manifold, valvetrain & camshaft viewpoint.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Great info from Shodan. Balor, consider also that a stock cam with harder than needed valve springs will add extra load to the camshaft hence lost of power. IMO build the engine at once with stock cam and brand new valve springs. On turbocharged b16/b18 engines for street use, camshafts are not the key point at making power but what kind of turbocharger is going to be used. You have to choose a turbocharger that will fulfill your power goal and after that you can "play" with cam selection and proper valvetrain. I bet that if you choose the right turbo for your expectations you won't be needing any cam replacement.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

I know friend.Cams is paired with backpressure and swallow.Id be arogant to say its more of a manifold depedant than turbo but we will see later about cams.

Very good reply. I like everything to be as i like it thats my problem. And his unless your building something custom it will never be.The reason i ask your advice/opinios its becase we the users will never know 100% the science behind the parts or the 100% real specs of everything.
But we can know what might work and what might not. The combined knowledge from experience and not from the books has the same weight as the knowledge from the theory. You allways need both.

About the valve springs ill get the 80 lbs and call it a day. Allong with ferrea valve locks and retainers and spring locators (thats the name?) all from ferrea.
I could get just the ferrea valve locks and get the supertech 85lbs to save some buck too but im not that convinced that supertech valve springs will have the same fatique with each other and keep the fatique small .
On some european car supertechs didnt last long on the advertised rates...I mean they age kind of fast.

I know bigger cams need the according turbo to keep backpressure low unless you have a divided setup thats helps some with the cross cylinder contamination.
I love both the GSCT1 and the kelfords but we will see later depending on setup. I might get a second TD05 and go twins.haha.
A small vid 0-160 km/h or 0-100 mph. R888 225/45R17 without burnout on average asphalt.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

me and my buddys in germany drive supertech springs and ti-retainer in a daily. my buddy b18c4 stock sleeve 10:1 pistons-rods, c4 cam´s, small garret t3/t04e turbocharger, supertech springs and retainer and pushes 420hp on 18psi. my k20a2 bw s200sx turbo, supertech springs and ti retainer, pistons and rods 540hp. everythning stock. keep it simple with a good tune. u dont need sleeves and cams and turbo springs hehe..

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Did you measure the valve springs after lets say 10.000 km? Most of the time you realise the sickness when its too late :)
In the army it is called in greek "αγνοια κινδυνου" ignorance of danger. I was one step before doing a K20 swap and turbo it but it was a little bit too much of money :)
Also in a strange turn of events i asked Kelford what valve springs they propose to use with 176-T. And they replied you can use ours.
I knew they make valve springs that are 80lbs. But i dont know anyone using them.Anyway i asked again if they are sure these cams can be used with 80 lbs
but the machine autoreplied they might answer late due due to the be at PRI or sth. Hmmm I knew people used the kelfords with 85 lbs but noone reported them with 80 lbs.

EDIT...Dear god they sell 85 lbs pfff. I was happy for a moment that 176-T would work with ferrea 80lbs but lets wait their answer. Anybody used KELFORD valve springs??
There are not cheap but if they are ferrea quality why not. They gonna fill that 85 lbs gap ferrea has.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

i cannot agree with this. Size of the turbo is way more essential than any manifold design.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

We've used Kelford Cams with the Ferrea, and we used their stiffer 85lbs-90lbs dual valvespring kit. This was6-8 years ago, and the car is still running. I've never experienced a Kelford/Supertech combination. But you need to make sure you're planning on using the KELFORDS or GSCs for these spring seat pressures.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Yeah but i cant find ferrea 85 - 90 lbs as you say. Only 80s and the big 95s.
Anyone has experience experience with the manley 82 lbs kit?
Also its interesting at least to see this. I got it from web cam webpage.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...6469a5336d.jpg

Also i asked Kiel Rasmussen(KELFORD) if 80lbs springs asre ok. And he asked what boost i plan rpm doesnt matter(hmm).
Told him 20psi to 30 psi (1.5 to 2 bar) max with water meth.
Ill update once he replies.
Altho they are away he keep tracks their email. Looks like a good profesional.
Back to the subject both web and Kelford look to care about boost more than rpm so the lbs/sq inch on the valve pressure theory stands true.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

oh man, im out of this thread! good luck

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

You didn't tell him what lbs/min (CFM) turbocharger you were planning to use also, did you? The amount of converted charge air for the rpm you're running makes a difference also.

Look. You're going to get literally 20-40 different combinations from the higher end companies. They're all made to basically handle anything even your upgrade will throw at it. But you're not going to see users of these companies completely match every component with its respective company for their particular use. You're just not going to get that kind of feedback. (I know that's not what you're looking for here).

When we look at these companies, we look at them in terms of quality "groups" .. (I.e. Manley, Kelford, GSC, Pauter, Carillo, Ferrea are all one class of higher-end quality product lines that work together , while Supertech, Mishimoto, Skunk2, Vibrant, are in a different class of quality-level product lines).

So, you can ask if anyone did X combo with Y combo, and you may /may not get many answers. It's because most people doing this isn't going to go into the far depths of each particular measurement than the other. (Although I agree that in many cases they should ask or measure more). But the truth is, it's all relative to the installation and purpose of use. You're going to such a higher end level of components, that now you've thrown out the door what you wanted, and that was something that was "cost-effective", but able to be bullet-proof.

Well, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way with these engines. So, what happens is those that get into the higher end lines, typically don't have any issues, because of correct material use of the company, correct installation, and correct purpose of use. They don't log utility or longevity in KMs on a roadway; they measure in the number of races the engine held together for 10,000+ rpms for insane periods of time. More than any street car.. The higher end models are purposeful race cars, and not street ones.... This is where your purpose comes in.

Most people who run Kelfords, also run Ferrea, or Manley, staying in that "class" of product. GSCs are close to that, although occasionally, a Supertech Component is used. (Yes, Supertech has some great Drag cars,but they're also rebuilt every few races, too. ;) ). But they stay either GSC matching valvetrain, or Ferrea.

How do you get more feedback about it? the same way the others did... They just put them in, recorded the nuances, and rolled the dice. Just like you will have to eventually..

Or don't. Stay with the GS-R camshafts, and OEM seat pressure valvetrain, and stay moderate. It's not like you have the most lively turbocharger in the pack, here. :shrug:

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

I told him about the turbo charger Mac. I know about higher density on the same PSI with a bigger turbo after all this years burning time reading haha.
Altho he asked about boost only I told him:The engine will be 93 octane(100 europe) + aquamist water meth turbo is not decided yet. We will try to hit what ever we can on a 50-60 lbs turboBoost 20 min to 30 max. psi or 1.5 to 2 bar max

He said
"Cool, in that case you would set the spring up with a little more seated pressure, the BC spring kit would handle a 1mm drop in installed height with the 176-T cam no sweat."

So youre probably right im both overthinking (altho i like to learn a lot, just for the acacemics) and overspecing.

Ill get the manley valve springs 82lbs + titanium retainer with ferrea valve locks because i allready order and waiting on delivery ferrea 6000 valves. Maybe ill buy bigger springs later.
I hope ferrea valves and locks will work with manley retainers.

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Early christmass. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...c424a97d31.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...288ad09e65.jpg

-Altho im not impressed by the manufactoring finishing s2 rods feel beefiers from the eagles? I measured them around 25.5-26mm. Anyone remembers the eagles width?
It looks like a sturdy rod. On the small torque - good rod/stroke ratio B16 things are better for the rods anyway.

I didnt ordered pistons yet because it itches me A LOT to get this but ill think about it a lot :
https://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/...0-p61-a00.html
All i need is 27.5 - 28mm compression height pistons i can get locally(DP engine parts) for allmost the price of cp pistons.
1.65 r/s(PERFECT), 1804cc, almost square bore/stroke, and SOME torque compared to b16 from the extra 4mm stroke.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...063e1b20e3.jpg

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Found a way to skip 85% of the custom paying 65 out of 200+ and got the ferrea valve train.
Also the sc7017 arrived. Im waiting on ferrea valve guides and stems seals.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...75439af442.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...0903c7fffb.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...fc4c078172.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...82bf992509.jpg

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

love it!

Re: Balor_Gr's Evo X TD05h-152G6-12T B16 Turbo Build Results
 

Did you talk to 4p directly? They told me they like to see about 92lbs seat pressure on most road racing and 1000whp 10k rpm builds and 110 for above to keep the valves in control. I have the same valve train as you and they said they can shim them to the right seat pressure. Also BC springs are made by PAC as well.