520whp B20 Set-up
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From: Charleston, SC
520whp B20 Set-up
I just got finished with a customers B20 set-up. Last time I had some big problems controlling boost with the TurboXS Dual stage boost controller as well as maxing the duty cycle out at 470whp with 750cc injectors.
The customer also voiced some concern with his fuel pump due to anther shop who did the install about 2 years ago. I decided to check it out and to my surprise there was a Walbro 190 in there. Once the new Walbro 255 was put in the B&M regulator decided to take a ****. Throwing a stocker on did the trick and I was able to keep the duty cycle at 80% at 520whp. So for those of you out there thinking about running the B&M, don't. It's a replacement piece for $35 bucks that uses the stock diaphram and simply allows you to increase your fuel pressure in a jerry-rigged sort of way. I've had about a 50/50 success rate when using these with the walbro 255 hp fuel pumps.
B20 non-vtaK (mild head-work)
JG Edelbrock manifold
bbk throttle body
84.5mm CP pistons 9.0:1
Eagle Rods (3/8" bolt)
Benson Sleeved
Crower Valve-Train & Turbo Cams
Hondata s100b
Apexi AVC-R
1000cc Precision Injectors, Walbro 255hp, stock fpr
SC61 (60/.63 t3)
Peakboost Manifold/3"DP/tial 38mm
p.s. I want to give special thanks to Leh for stealing my race gas in order to put into his R34 Skyline.
The customer also voiced some concern with his fuel pump due to anther shop who did the install about 2 years ago. I decided to check it out and to my surprise there was a Walbro 190 in there. Once the new Walbro 255 was put in the B&M regulator decided to take a ****. Throwing a stocker on did the trick and I was able to keep the duty cycle at 80% at 520whp. So for those of you out there thinking about running the B&M, don't. It's a replacement piece for $35 bucks that uses the stock diaphram and simply allows you to increase your fuel pressure in a jerry-rigged sort of way. I've had about a 50/50 success rate when using these with the walbro 255 hp fuel pumps.
B20 non-vtaK (mild head-work)
JG Edelbrock manifold
bbk throttle body
84.5mm CP pistons 9.0:1
Eagle Rods (3/8" bolt)
Benson Sleeved
Crower Valve-Train & Turbo Cams
Hondata s100b
Apexi AVC-R
1000cc Precision Injectors, Walbro 255hp, stock fpr
SC61 (60/.63 t3)
Peakboost Manifold/3"DP/tial 38mm
p.s. I want to give special thanks to Leh for stealing my race gas in order to put into his R34 Skyline.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,296
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: (eastcoast_ej)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tuned_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
sc61....looks great. Do you tink it would be worth the money to buy a gt3076r to make that much power? Pricewise the sc61 costs almost half as much. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It kind of depends on your power goal and if you want a ball-bearing or not. The gt3076 has 3 different options ranging from 520, 550, and 600hp.
The SC61 has 2 different options rated at 630-680hp as well. The SC61 also has a ball bearing option for an additional $200. On this set-up I'm glad a sc61 was used since this engine is not as efficient as say a b18c1.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eastcoast_ej »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any boost creep problems with the 38mm on the lower boost (14psi) pump tune?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No problems whatsoever, I was running just off of the wastegate on that run. The only issue I had with running 28psi was getting at max boost at a decent rpm without spinning the tires on the dyno. I upped the duty cycle at 5000 rpms quite a bit to get the boost in quicker but the tires just spun because the tread on them is plain horrible. Once at 5750-6000rpms I was able to have the boost hold at a steady 28psi up until redline.
sc61....looks great. Do you tink it would be worth the money to buy a gt3076r to make that much power? Pricewise the sc61 costs almost half as much. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It kind of depends on your power goal and if you want a ball-bearing or not. The gt3076 has 3 different options ranging from 520, 550, and 600hp.
The SC61 has 2 different options rated at 630-680hp as well. The SC61 also has a ball bearing option for an additional $200. On this set-up I'm glad a sc61 was used since this engine is not as efficient as say a b18c1.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eastcoast_ej »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any boost creep problems with the 38mm on the lower boost (14psi) pump tune?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No problems whatsoever, I was running just off of the wastegate on that run. The only issue I had with running 28psi was getting at max boost at a decent rpm without spinning the tires on the dyno. I upped the duty cycle at 5000 rpms quite a bit to get the boost in quicker but the tires just spun because the tread on them is plain horrible. Once at 5750-6000rpms I was able to have the boost hold at a steady 28psi up until redline.
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From: CT
Re: (PrecisionH23a)
What kind of crower cam is this set-up running? you said mild build, so im assuming that it just have crower cam with valvetrain? no p&p whatsoever?
Is it using a stock intake manifold or aftermarket?
Is it using a stock intake manifold or aftermarket?
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: (StolenTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StolenTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What kind of crower cam is this set-up running? you said mild build, so im assuming that it just have crower cam with valvetrain? no p&p whatsoever?
Is it using a stock intake manifold or aftermarket?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It has a mild port and polished done. I wouldn't call it anything special by any means. It has the JG edelbrock manifold with the bbk throttle body.
Is it using a stock intake manifold or aftermarket?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It has a mild port and polished done. I wouldn't call it anything special by any means. It has the JG edelbrock manifold with the bbk throttle body.
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Re: (PrecisionH23a)
hmmm...thats interesting what you said about the efficiency of the motor. I guess that being the bottleneck. Is there the same efficiency dilemma with h22's in not being able to reach the rated ouput of a given turbo? Having to use a much larger urbo to reach a lower power goal.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: northern, va
Re: (tuned_vtec)
well I have heard that h22s crave more fuel when tuning such as bigger injectors to reach a higher HP level.... a bigger turbo as I'm learning more about my set-up is necessary too......... (I choose a smaller one for quicker spool up.. now Im regretting it!!!)
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: (Drkaccrd)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drkaccrd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well I have heard that h22s crave more fuel when tuning such as bigger injectors to reach a higher HP level.... a bigger turbo as I'm learning more about my set-up is necessary too......... (I choose a smaller one for quicker spool up.. now Im regretting it!!!)</TD></TR></TABLE>
Huh?
H22's have larger displacement... so you can cram more air into the cylinders than a smaller displacement engine (theoretically without getting into specifics). Thus meaning fact you would need more fuel to compensate for the additonal air. H22's are pretty efficient. An engine is basically an air pump. The more air you can cram into the cylinders means the more fuel you will need.
As far as this B20 goes, I would say the head is the most restrictive part of this set-up. It is very similar to the LS head but I don't have any information from flowbenches on these non-vtec heads. Feel free to post some sheets up if you guys have them.
I would say a vtec head would add an easy 75-100whp. But honestly, 500whp in this car is rediculous. On the interstate it breaks the tires lose in 5th gear at around 5700rpms. With proper suspension and dialing it in... it can run 10's with no problem. So I really don't think it needs more power. I left the tune a little on the safe side and didn't really get into throwing a lot of timing into it because of the eagle rods being used. I wanted to keep cylinder pressures low in order to decrease the amount of stress being placed on the rods. Yea I know guys have made over 600 on them but again... what's a measly 20whp when all you do is spin anyways?
Huh?
H22's have larger displacement... so you can cram more air into the cylinders than a smaller displacement engine (theoretically without getting into specifics). Thus meaning fact you would need more fuel to compensate for the additonal air. H22's are pretty efficient. An engine is basically an air pump. The more air you can cram into the cylinders means the more fuel you will need.
As far as this B20 goes, I would say the head is the most restrictive part of this set-up. It is very similar to the LS head but I don't have any information from flowbenches on these non-vtec heads. Feel free to post some sheets up if you guys have them.
I would say a vtec head would add an easy 75-100whp. But honestly, 500whp in this car is rediculous. On the interstate it breaks the tires lose in 5th gear at around 5700rpms. With proper suspension and dialing it in... it can run 10's with no problem. So I really don't think it needs more power. I left the tune a little on the safe side and didn't really get into throwing a lot of timing into it because of the eagle rods being used. I wanted to keep cylinder pressures low in order to decrease the amount of stress being placed on the rods. Yea I know guys have made over 600 on them but again... what's a measly 20whp when all you do is spin anyways?
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Re: (PrecisionH23a)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Huh?
H22's have larger displacement... so you can cram more air into the cylinders than a smaller displacement engine (theoretically without getting into specifics). Thus meaning fact you would need more fuel to compensate for the additonal air. H22's are pretty efficient. An engine is basically an air pump. The more air you can cram into the cylinders means the more fuel you will need.
As far as this B20 goes, I would say the head is the most restrictive part of this set-up. It is very similar to the LS head but I don't have any information from flowbenches on these non-vtec heads. Feel free to post some sheets up if you guys have them.
I would say a vtec head would add an easy 75-100whp. But honestly, 500whp in this car is rediculous. On the interstate it breaks the tires lose in 5th gear at around 5700rpms. With proper suspension and dialing it in... it can run 10's with no problem. So I really don't think it needs more power. I left the tune a little on the safe side and didn't really get into throwing a lot of timing into it because of the eagle rods being used. I wanted to keep cylinder pressures low in order to decrease the amount of stress being placed on the rods. Yea I know guys have made over 600 on them but again... what's a measly 20whp when all you do is spin anyways?</TD></TR></TABLE>
you didn't answer my question....since your names PrecisionH23a maybe you know about h22's....if not forget it. Are h22's efficient WITHOUT HEADWORK and can they reach within 100hp of a given turbos rated power output, assuming the rest of the setup is not restrictive.
Huh?
H22's have larger displacement... so you can cram more air into the cylinders than a smaller displacement engine (theoretically without getting into specifics). Thus meaning fact you would need more fuel to compensate for the additonal air. H22's are pretty efficient. An engine is basically an air pump. The more air you can cram into the cylinders means the more fuel you will need.
As far as this B20 goes, I would say the head is the most restrictive part of this set-up. It is very similar to the LS head but I don't have any information from flowbenches on these non-vtec heads. Feel free to post some sheets up if you guys have them.
I would say a vtec head would add an easy 75-100whp. But honestly, 500whp in this car is rediculous. On the interstate it breaks the tires lose in 5th gear at around 5700rpms. With proper suspension and dialing it in... it can run 10's with no problem. So I really don't think it needs more power. I left the tune a little on the safe side and didn't really get into throwing a lot of timing into it because of the eagle rods being used. I wanted to keep cylinder pressures low in order to decrease the amount of stress being placed on the rods. Yea I know guys have made over 600 on them but again... what's a measly 20whp when all you do is spin anyways?</TD></TR></TABLE>
you didn't answer my question....since your names PrecisionH23a maybe you know about h22's....if not forget it. Are h22's efficient WITHOUT HEADWORK and can they reach within 100hp of a given turbos rated power output, assuming the rest of the setup is not restrictive.
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: (tuned_vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tuned_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you didn't answer my question....since your names PrecisionH23a maybe you know about h22's....if not forget it. Are h22's efficient WITHOUT HEADWORK and can they reach within 100hp of a given turbos rated power output, assuming the rest of the setup is not restrictive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H22's are pretty efficient. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes they are. I've been building H series since about '99 and they are my engine of choice to work with... but now I'm starting to do a lot more K series. If you want to get into volumetric efficiency... look into the k's.
Anyways, to answer your question... yes, the H series head and engine is efficient. I've made 550whp on a bone stock head before if that means anything to you. From experience, typically you will see the same power level be made with about 1-2psi less on a well ported head. I think a few guys have even made a surplus of 600+whp on a stock h22 head if I recall correctly.
As far as your other question... yes but there are other factors that are involved. Meaning... it depends on the turbo you run. 20psi on a t25 does not equal 20psi on a gt4088.
you didn't answer my question....since your names PrecisionH23a maybe you know about h22's....if not forget it. Are h22's efficient WITHOUT HEADWORK and can they reach within 100hp of a given turbos rated power output, assuming the rest of the setup is not restrictive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H22's are pretty efficient. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes they are. I've been building H series since about '99 and they are my engine of choice to work with... but now I'm starting to do a lot more K series. If you want to get into volumetric efficiency... look into the k's.
Anyways, to answer your question... yes, the H series head and engine is efficient. I've made 550whp on a bone stock head before if that means anything to you. From experience, typically you will see the same power level be made with about 1-2psi less on a well ported head. I think a few guys have even made a surplus of 600+whp on a stock h22 head if I recall correctly.
As far as your other question... yes but there are other factors that are involved. Meaning... it depends on the turbo you run. 20psi on a t25 does not equal 20psi on a gt4088.
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From: Illinois
Re: (PrecisionH23a)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes they are. I've been building H series since about '99 and they are my engine of choice to work with... but now I'm starting to do a lot more K series.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The h series almost had its light in the sun, but then the k came out and took over. People just over look them, they are great engine.
Yes they are. I've been building H series since about '99 and they are my engine of choice to work with... but now I'm starting to do a lot more K series.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The h series almost had its light in the sun, but then the k came out and took over. People just over look them, they are great engine.
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Re: (PrecisionH23a)
Thanks for pointing this out..
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H22's are pretty efficient. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I hope it wasn't too much typing....wouldn't want you to write a whole book.
Anyway, I can't seem to get you on track of the quetion I'm asking and I don't want to go into a lengthy debate over h22s in b20 thread so I'll try to generalize.
Of course you can use a turbo with enough cfm's to get good numbers out of an inefficient engine by brute force. With the b20 though your about 100hp from the turbos rated power. Obviously it not in the best efficiency range of the compressor because of the head as you assessed. I'm wondering if you typically see this type of trend with stock h22 heads with maybe a set of type s cams. Is there typically a huge difference between actual hp and rated hp with h22's because of the head? I've seen many dyno plots of h22's that fall short of the hp rated power but no comments about why it didn't make anymore power. Do you know the cfm of the h22 head?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H22's are pretty efficient. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I hope it wasn't too much typing....wouldn't want you to write a whole book.
Anyway, I can't seem to get you on track of the quetion I'm asking and I don't want to go into a lengthy debate over h22s in b20 thread so I'll try to generalize.
Of course you can use a turbo with enough cfm's to get good numbers out of an inefficient engine by brute force. With the b20 though your about 100hp from the turbos rated power. Obviously it not in the best efficiency range of the compressor because of the head as you assessed. I'm wondering if you typically see this type of trend with stock h22 heads with maybe a set of type s cams. Is there typically a huge difference between actual hp and rated hp with h22's because of the head? I've seen many dyno plots of h22's that fall short of the hp rated power but no comments about why it didn't make anymore power. Do you know the cfm of the h22 head?
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Re: (sc4dr)
Why is it so ******* difficult to ask certain questions in here. If someone has a question that I can help with, I'll help them. Then theres these ******* big shots that have all this information and they keep it to themselves. expletive it, don't answer the question.
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From: Longmont, CO, usa
Re: (tuned_vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tuned_vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why is it so ******* difficult to ask certain questions in here. If someone has a question that I can help with, I'll help them. Then theres these ******* big shots that have all this information and they keep it to themselves. expletive it, don't answer the question.</TD></TR></TABLE>
make your own thread genious. this one is about a 500+hp B20... there is nothing in this thread about an H22, why would he start answering all your unrelated questions in this thread?
make your own thread genious. this one is about a 500+hp B20... there is nothing in this thread about an H22, why would he start answering all your unrelated questions in this thread?
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: northern, va
Re: (tuned_vtec)
ok here is the bottom line...................... what are you trying to achieve?
Is there a power goal in mind that would require a great flowing head?
Or are you just trying to learn all the specifics so you can choose an engine sometime far off in the future???? Other than that whats your deal with these questions?
Is there a power goal in mind that would require a great flowing head?
Or are you just trying to learn all the specifics so you can choose an engine sometime far off in the future???? Other than that whats your deal with these questions?