Toda Spec B's + b16a2, Searched but still need answers....
 

Ok, I've been a member on this board for quite some time and have done alot of researching and reading on these but everyone seems to have a different opinion or assumption. I would like answers from someone who has experience with spec b's or in that field.
I've heard alot about snapping timing belts, checking valve clearances/adjusting every 10-20k, retard timing, etc.

First off, I already have the spec b's and toda gears from toda, I am still debating on the valvetrain because I see that some of the users have used the supertech 2d kit and it worked out fine or the DR kit which can handle 14mm, but then some highly recommend toda's kit to be used with their cams. Also, should I use OEM retainers due to titanium wearing out much faster, I would like this to last as long as it can.

Second, is it safe to run a OEM timing belt with these or should I get toda's? But if I go with toda's timing belt, doesn't it only last about 30k or so? I've seen diff. users with oem timing belts and haven't had any problems but then some say they will snap.

Third, I will be removing my ITR cams to install these in, what I need to know is do I need to retard the exhaust timing to -2 and intake at 0 to get the car to start? I will be installing these myself unless there's something that I need to know, I have assembly lube, honda-bond, 3/8 torque wrench, and my torque specs. Any help?

Last, the motor is a stock b16a2 in a '00 SI, I've seen 175whp pulls off of a stock si in the all motor forum. I will be daily driving these untuned until I can get a appointment in with mainstream performance (I do a total of 5 miles a day to and from work). As far as the timing belt tensioner, how tight am I suppose to go, I normally tighten it to where there's only about 1/2 inch of slack (turning the belt sideways).

Oh, one more thing, Should I keep my stock a2 intake manifold because some users prefer this because of the low-mid range. Upgrading to a ITR mani will make me lose my low range but increases top end, is this really a necessary mod? BTW, I will be using the hytech tri-y replica header with a straight exhaust to help aid these cams, also a mugen or 2 layer headgasket.




Modified by krucial7integra at 10:39 PM 9/2/2008

I'm actually curious to know about the timing belt also.

Re: (Fat Chick Magnet)
 

any aggressive cam will wear a timing belt prematurely. I usually recommend replacing the belt every 20,000-30,000 miles on cammed cars, especially BIG CAM cars (Skunk2 PRO, TODA B or C or D, BC IV+, etc)

Titanium ret should wear as fast as people think they do. I had Rocket Motorsports Ret in my 9900rpm GSR with M22Xs and after 50k mile there was no sign of wear. This goes for other cars i have seen with similar cams. BLACK R did have a titanium ret issue with his TODA Cs but i think that was because he had improper Ret to rocker clearance.

Most B16s STOCK make 130-150whp TOPS. With ITR cams id youd be lucky to see 160whp IMO tuned. Unless you have a good header.

IMO even with Toda Bs, the 1.6L just aint big enough, you will pick up power but not alot. Prob would be better to go with Toda SPec As if you are hell bent on TODA or SKunk2 Stage 2s (Tuner Series)

BC3+ do well on B16s too.

Dont expect something rediculous like 180-190whp it aint gonna happen.

I always tension the belt pretty tight. Its more of a feel than a setting. I usually check for tension between the cam gears and side to side.

i like it snug.

If your tensioner has alot of miles on it, replace it.

Re: (VtecKiDD)
 

Good advice https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

One of the most important things you can do when building your motor up is to make sure you select the parts that will work the best together so you'll end up with the best gains and drivability. Your part selection is not optimal for what you have or are trying to do.

As VtecKiDD said, Toda A's would have been the better choice on a stock b16a if you're stuck on Toda. ITR/CTR cams, Blox A's or B's, Skunk stage 1's or 2's, Bc 3's, Rocket M21's etc have all been proven to be better choices/matches for your engine. You could always sell what you have and choose any one of these cams and be much better off. Just match whatever valvetrain you use to the cams you're using, always a good idea.

That header you selected is not an optimal choice for a b16a either. It is meant more for a 1.8L and larger and has been shown to actually lose power on b16's until the top end of the power range. A DC JDM 4-1 isn't a bad coice as long as you're adding cams but the ideal header would be the Toda for that car. Someone is now making a copy of that Toda header which may be another option for you to go and probably not that expensive.

Your stock intake manifold is excellent on that car and you don't "have" to change it out but if you do, I'd go for the performer x or type R style (only after you added cams).

The 2 layer headgasket is a good idea and you never need to use anything other than a stock timing belt. I have personally seen more problems with the Toda belts than stock but stock is plenty strong.

Just remember, all this will be for nothing if you don't have a tunable ecu to use.

thanks guys!

I chose the toda's because of the awesome mid-range that they provide. I'm not looking to be fast, just trying to see what these can do. They've been sitting in my room for a while now because I was too afraid to put them in my gsr, so I figured the b16 would be a better choice.

So the hytech replica header is a bad idea with these cams? I would have thought that they would bring out more power. Any links to the toda replica header?

So an OEM timing belt should be ok?

No one uses the mugen headgasket?

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2361383

Lots of people use the mugen 2 layer as well.

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

The toda copy can be found here-> https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/2364945
OEM timing belt will be fine, just check/replace it more often. Mugen headgaskets are just oem with the top layer removed, save some money and do that yourself.


Edit: corrected link.


Modified by Furyof4 at 4:05 PM 9/3/2008

Re: (Furyof4)
 

are you sure the hytech replica looses on top on a b16a? https://honda-tech.com/zeroavatar/192549

Re: (Furyof4)
 

that link is for pistons and rods, I don't see the header.

So I can buy a OEM headgasket and just remove the top layer and it'll be the same as the mugen?

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

This is a b16 i recently did a header test on. The motor was stock with just I/H/E. NO TUNING WAS DONE

Tri-y REPLICA Header versus "Popular 4-1"
https://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c...kidd/BUCKY.jpg

As you can see the 4-1 makes a GOOD BIT more in midrange and peak than the the Tri-y on the 1.6l. Its really all about air flow and the B16 likes to REV. Its better suited with the 4-1 header.

The TODA Bs wont give you alot of midrange because the motor is too small. I hate to say it but you are going to be very dissapointed IMO. You may want to sell the cams, get Skunk2 Stage 2s, and a Toda Replica header and tune.

The primaries on the SPec Bs just arent going to work well IMO on your setup.

I've recently gotten Toda B's installed into my '98spec ITR motor.

for peace of mind, i went with the Toda springs, retainers, cam gears and timing belt as well.

valve lash was set at 0.2mm at cold as well.

in the mean time until i find a tuner for my EMS, i'm using a chipped ECU to run these cams.

cams were not degreed, nor were they measure for V2V clearance. left at 0 degrees on the cam gears, these cams didn't feel very good.

it was dead below 3000rpm with good midrange and even better top end power (according to butt dyno). advancing the intake 2 degrees made the lower rpm range come back to life again.

i'm trying out different ECU's so far (chipped ones), and these cams seem to like a higher vtec engagement. the one i have now is set at 6700rpm for VTEC with a 9500redline. primaries carry the midrange power nicely until vtec.

the cams are relatively lumpy at idle (around 800rpm)...smooth but you'll get a bit of a lump. and also, the valvetrain is noisy as fack until i warms up.

other than that, i'm impressed with them so far...i'm sure they'll do better with some higher compression than my 11.1:1.

Re: (Mashimaro)
 

vteckidd - Thanks! I'll def. look into the 4-1 header. But I still would like to try these out, I'm not looking to make alot of power, just got a good deal on these so decided to go with them. Plus I've heard alot of good things about these.

Mashimoro - that's exactly what I was thinking of doing, everything toda to be on the safe side even though supertech 2D kit would handle these cams also.

So advancing the intake cam by +2 degrees and exhaust at 0 would help out a little bit, I have a chipped p28 with vtec at 5800 which is basically the same as a R. Hopefully that will do for the time being while its untuned. Btw, what headgasket did you use? OEM?

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krucial7integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Mashimoro - that's exactly what I was thinking of doing, everything toda to be on the safe side even though supertech 2D kit would handle these cams also.

So advancing the intake cam by +2 degrees and exhaust at 0 would help out a little bit, I have a chipped p28 with vtec at 5800 which is basically the same as a R. Hopefully that will do for the time being while its untuned. Btw, what headgasket did you use? OEM?</TD></TR></TABLE>

krucial - if you want to save some coin, you could probably run another aftermarket spring and even ITR OEM retainers. i'm keeping an eye on my Toda retainers and belt every so often, just incase...

the first ECU i tried had the VTEC at 5200...didn't run too well, but had major top end power (once past 7000rpm).

the primary lobes are kinda big so i think it'll be good to have a higher vtec, i could be wrong though. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...es/emsmile.gif

bottom end is untouched on my motor so stock headgasket is what i'm using. keep in mind, VTEC doesn't really 'pop' with these cams compared to stock..

Re: (Mashimaro)
 

OEM itr retainers? Some users decided to stick with oem retainers because of the thickness, would this be better suited than TI-retainers since they wear faster? I was thinking along the lines of supertech valve springs or toda's and itr retainers, any ideas?

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

i would not even touch the cam gears until its on a dyno. There is no universal setting, and playing with them can cause disaster if you do not know what you are doing.

Leave them at 0,0 and get a good tune, then adjust them on the dyno

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krucial7integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">vteckidd - Thanks! I'll def. look into the 4-1 header. But I still would like to try these out, I'm not looking to make alot of power, just got a good deal on these so decided to go with them. Plus I've heard alot of good things about these.

Mashimoro - that's exactly what I was thinking of doing, everything toda to be on the safe side even though supertech 2D kit would handle these cams also.

So advancing the intake cam by +2 degrees and exhaust at 0 would help out a little bit, I have a chipped p28 with vtec at 5800 which is basically the same as a R. Hopefully that will do for the time being while its untuned. Btw, what headgasket did you use? OEM?</TD></TR></TABLE>


I have to tell you, that car is going to run like complete ass, you know this right? Even if you got the cams for nothing and you heard good things about them, you will not be happy installing them in the setup you're running now. Unless you can say that you'll be happy with your engine making less power than it does now with worse driveability, I don't believe you fully comprehend what you're wanting to do.

Re: (00Red_SiR)
 

let him try it man, hes posted a few threads about this and we have ALL said multiple times the TODA Bs are not for that engine.

No offense Krucial but you have talked about these cams for months if not longer.

If you still dont believe us, install them and see what happens, you at least can swap them back out if you dont like them.

I think you are making a big mistake. Id sell the TODA cams and pick up some BC SPEC IIIs or Skunk2 STAGE 2s.

You dont want big fat primaries. you want stock lobes and agressvie vtec lobes a b16 wants to REV.

good luck

1. There is a B16 with TODA Bs (with TODA header) in the dyno thread... however IMO Victor-X is an overkill on that setup.

2. upon my request there was available some custom Rocket cams with 2 medium primaries (NOT small, but not the regular XX, new design) and similar VTEC lobe (12mm lift and ~250duration) then TODA Bs.... it seems working well in an other local B16. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emwink.gif

If toda b's in a b16 is such a bad idea, how come so many h-t users have them and they're making 170ish on stock internals meaning stock block?

Here's one for an example, stock block with stock p30 pistons. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=958868

I'll look into it a little more, but if all else fails, I'll just sell or trade those for some bc 3's, I like the mid range on those.

where are all the b16 toda users at????


Modified by krucial7integra at 5:13 PM 9/4/2008

Re: (00Red_SiR)
 

So its going to run slower than stock? I find this hard to believe considering there are tons of b16's out there using toda b's and are in the 170 range stock bottom end. Do you have any experience with these?

Vteckidd - I trust your words and don't doubt that you know what you're talking about considering you have experiences with these. Plus the fact that I picked up the exhaust cam from "FUCT" and if memory serves me correctly you're the one that helped do the install and tune on his '98 R.

I am running Stock bottom end B16 with Toda b's and Skunk Adj Cam gears.

Both Cam gears are at 0 and its only been tuned enough to get the AFR's "safe"

SPEC: Try-y rep header, Stock Springs + retainers, Cone filter and a Tanabe Cat back system (cat removed).

Redline 8700rpm wants loads more but dare not with the valve train.
VTEC change over 5700rpm

Car does not idle. it stalls unless its been punished then it tickes over (just) at 400rpms (lumpy)

The car is deffo quicker now than it was. Proven.
That is without being Dyno tuned. No idea of power yet (Oct 25th is Dyno day).

The only reason I put these in the B16 was for shits and giggles. No other reason... I am rebuilding my B18 and WOULD NEVER dream of running these in that with stock valve train.

With my stock B16 cams my friends EP3 pulled away from me at the end of my 3rd gear... Now with the Toda's he comes past mid 4th...

Dont slate me for the Springs or retainers as I do know better. (I have 2 B16 in the Garage and 1 B18 spare) I am mealy testing the reliability of Honda's Engineering. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...es/emsmile.gif

Paul.

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

I think youll make power , but at the cost of what its really worth.

I guess what i mean is, you can make the same power with prob a lot better curve than the TODABs , the Toda B s are made for bigger motors.

But since you already have them, go ahead and install them, see what happens, never hurts to try and if you dont like them you can swap the R cams back in

12sec14 - you are running these with stock valvetrain and no problems so far? thats wild man

vteckidd - I'll give them a shot, the goal is to hit 170ish and I'll be satisfied. It took me months to accumulate these and I really don't want to start over again.


So can anyone tell me would it be fine to run oem ITR retainers with aftermarket springs? just a thought.

Re: (krucial7integra)
 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krucial7integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So can anyone tell me would it be fine to run oem ITR retainers with aftermarket springs? just a thought.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you'll be fine

Re: Toda Spec B's + b16a2, Searched but still need answers....
 

I had a friend with b16a2 block with ctr pistons and toda c cams with type r 4-1 header and the toda c cams were way to big..once the motor it vtec it lost power..so we had to set the vtec point as high as 7,000.after that the car made power and had a smoove power band due to the fact that the toda c cams all three cam lobes are huge anyways so it still pulled but who wants to rev that thing to the moon just to make power..we set the rev limiter at 9,300 and it made power all the way up there..but toda c is way to big for a b16..a smaller cam like 402 or skunk 2 stage is the biggest you should go.