Jimi Hondrix

Just had a used hub assembly: http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/Te...842_honhub.gif pulled by salvage yard yesterday. They did it for $40 part + labor and it would have been $25 (part) if I pulled it myself so, I figured I'd save myself some time and possible aggravation. The used hub looks to be in very good shape and the hub spins freely without any wobble or play so, I do not intend on inserting a new bearing OR should I replace it?
The lower ball joint in the used part is shot and I doubt if the one currently on the car can be used again (after removing it) which likely means a new lower ball joint is needed.
Musashi is the OEM LBJ manufacturer. Has anyone purchased this particular one or used either of these seller's?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-OEM-51220-S04-003-Ball-Joint-Lower-Suspension-Ball-Joint-51220S04003-/121544565373?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c4c9ee27d&vxp=mtr

tony_2018

id order it from the oem online dealer

Jimi Hondrix

I sent questions to seller to find out if is specifically a Musashi made part. If it is a Musashi I will buy it either from ebay or amazon and if not I will but it from a a good on-line dealer. The best on-line dealer price is $53 and that is not shipping included.

Just got the ebay seller's response: "i dont know who manufactures this for honda, but it is a factory honda item in a factory package."

Yet the description on the webpage states:
Part #: 51220S04003
ABOUT THE PART
The part or sub-assembly you are purchasing is a Genuine OEM Factory Original part sold by an authorized Genuine OEM parts reseller. The part is not "like OEM", it is the Genuine OEM part sold by the vehicle manufacturer.

Sounds very suspicious and the part should be stamped and able to read through the package.

tony_2018

No, they sell oem honda parts there to. All honda/acura parts have a red/white label on it with the part number in bold black.

edit: just make sure the are selling you the balljoin in its ORIGINAL PACKAGING. If you google around for images of how balljoints are packaged from honda with the red/white label you'll get an idea of how it looks like.

Jimi Hondrix

The one sold on Amazon clearly shows the packaging with Honda's name, genuine part, barcode and part number on it. The ebay seller attached a pic of the ball joint in a plastic bag with what looks to be a Honda sticker and part number but, the image is so small I can't read it and too pixelated if I enlarge it. I asked the e-bay seller to send me larger, higher quality images of the packaging, sticker and the top of the ball joint.

I ordered one from majestic honda a couple years ago for my previous '98 civic and on the site it read Honda genuine OEM part (Musashi). However, when I received it, (IIRC) it was stamped Sankei 555 made in Japan.

tony_2018

Yeah Honda changes manufacturing from time to time. But the quality remains. If it makes you sleep better at night they do have warranty from Honda on parts.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

OEM Honda = Best of the best, regardless of original manufacturer. Don't sweat it. If it comes in original Honda packaging, you're as good as gold.

Have you read my "navigating aftermarket parts" FAQ yet? Link in my signature.

Jimi Hondrix

I haven't read it. I will order the one from Amazon, Thanks *******..lol

I plan on banging the old one out with a sledge hammer (light tap/ controlled swing) and putting the new one in with the LBJ press rental from Autozone... Do those work well for this particular LBJ.

94EG8

If there was nothing wrong with it it can be removed and reused.

Carefully remove the spring clip that holds the dust boot on, then remove the dust boot. If there is a snap ring holding the ball joint in (an OEM Honda ball joint wont have one) remove it. Clamp the knuckle in a bench vise with the stud of the ball joint facing up. Find a deep socket the same size as the ball joint, hold the socket in place and hit it with the hammer, the ball joint will be driven out with no damage.

Also, you don't need the press to install them. I've always just used a hammer and a punch (always hit around the edge of the ball joint, never in the middle)

Jimi Hondrix

Thanks 94EG8. That's very informative and helpful info. I ordered the ball joint through Amazon a few hours ago and will keep it on hand even if I decide to save the current ball joint using your advice. I purchased the car a couple weeks ago and no prior history was given and have no idea how old the current ball joint is.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I have a pair of OEM Musashi ball joints still sealed in the Honda package. I can tell you with 100% certainty that they are completely un-marked inside & out. There are identifiers on them whatsoever.

If you receive a Sankei 555 (also called Three Five) part instead you have been tricked. If you contact Sankei, you will find they are not the OEM supplier for these parts. Though they do make some OEM Honda mufflers.

I can also tell you that over the years I have been unable to find any other outlet for Musashi brand parts, other than directly from Honda dealers. Kinda like the Honda/Yamada brand water pumps.

BTW: I made this thread on replacing Honda balljoints with free rental tools from Autozone. Same kinda thing but without the hammer:

https://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-d...164-a-2987276/

Jimi Hondrix

It was two years ago and I can't quite recall if they had Three Five or 555 stamped on them or if I almost bought that brand before deciding on purchasing through Majestic Honda. At the time when I bought it it was a similar description and wording as this one from Sons: JOINT, BALL (LOWER) (MUSASHI). KNUCKLE for 1998 Honda Civic. #51220-S04-003

Thanks for the LBJ link

No one commented on whether the hub bearing should be replaced on the used part so I am taking it as install it as is.

tony_2018

I can't really trust a junk spindle with a used bearing, god knows how long its been sitting out there. I recommend replacing the bearing. The hub itself can be saved, just not the bearing.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Here is a better price and you can use coupon code SWOOSH for half price shipping over $100 order:
JOINT, BALL (LOWER) (MUSASHI) | Genuine Acura | 51220-S04-003

Here is another thread on replacing bearings with a $80 Harbor freight tool. It is a lot of work though since you will have to cut the inner race off with a dremel (or grinder). No problem if you are patient and have the time:
https://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-d...829-a-2984426/

If the bearings are smooth in both directions with no notchyness or noise, I would use them. New OEM wheel bearings are usually Koyo or NTN. The Honda parts system will tell you which one.

Jimi Hondrix

The guy I bought the car from has a full time mechanic and I brought the used hub to him. He said the ball joint that is in it is still good just the boot is ripped. He re-greased the ball joint and installed the hub $30. He spun the wheel in neutral and checked for play while the car was jacked up and all was good. I drove it for a half hour at speeds up to 50 mph and all seems good.

Before I left their shop I did a few tight left radius turns and there's still grinding going on. The mechanic suspected the strut and/or strut bearing is bad so, he used a pry bar around the upper and spring and told me the strut is worn out. The mechanic seems like an honest guy and based on what he charged me for the hub isn't out to gouge me. I will however, get a second opinion concerning the struts. I talked to his employer who sold me the car and expressed (in a civil way) that the sold me a car that has a lot of issues and asked him how he would feel if the situation was reversed. I reminded him that the car was for my daughter and I can't have it in disrepair in her possession. He said he feels bad about it and said he had little history of the car himself. I told if he plans to sell more cars that he should feel some diligence towards what he is selling instead of just making a quick buck.

Now it's time to search for struts.. some hard lessens I'm learning from this auto purchase.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Well, there are no "struts" on 92-00 Civics & Del Sols......and the "shocks" they do have do not contain any bearings. The mechanic is either blowing smoke up your butt, or he has no idea what he's talking about (both are very common things). The shocks do not turn with the steering as struts do and as the mechanic is suggesting. They ONLY go up and down as the wheel moves up and down. This can happen during cornering at speed, but not while standing still. Especially with the absolute minimal +1 degree of Caster these cars have in the front suspension.

If something is grinding while turning the wheel at standstill, it's most likely a ball joint (upper or lower), a tie-rod (inner or outer), or something wrong in the steering rack.

If the car is making noise at speed while turning, it could include things like sway bars, shocks, axles, bushings, loose bolts, etc...

BTW: You can check your shocks by simply bouncing the front end of your car. It should be difficult to keep bouncing, and it should make minimal or no noise. Also you should not be able to see any movement in the upper hat washers & bushings under the hood while you are bouncing it.

Jimi Hondrix

We bounced the shocks the day we did a test drive and they rebounded very well and also got the car up to 25 mph and braked hard with minimal front end dip. After I read your reply I turned the steering wheel side to side (engine idling and car at a stand still) and no noise at all.
I replaced inner and outer tie rods on both sides two weeks ago.

Just took it for a second opinion and it looks/sounds like the grinding noise during at speed turns is the arm of the knuckle is rubbing against the shock spring but, I can't figure out why and either could the mechanic. After reading up about it on-line here's a few possibilities:
1) CV axle replaced (prior owner) and the shaft is not long enough (wrong part?)
2) Worn out input shaft bearings
3) Camber issue

4) A quote from a random post: "Do you think that because the 96-00 Civic knuckles are only a half inch shorter than the 92-95 Civic knuckles that this could possibly cause my axles to bind and make this obnoxious knocking sound while turning and accelerating?
Answer:
Yes it can. When you use a different height knuckle and the same control arms, its as if the knuckle is now tilting. This means the outer axle end is changing distance from where it would normally be, so if it were farther out or closer in, that could add friction and cause em to wear because they are designed to move up and down with regards to the UCA and LCA and knuckle lengths that the chassis had it designed for."

However, the grinding noise was there prior to hub swap in my car's case..
For some reason the grinding noise wasn't present during the initial test drive before purchase. I did several tight left and right radius turns to listen for CV axle clicking and didn't hear any abnormal noises then.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Shorter knuckles will not cause binding like that. The reality it takes a TALLER knuckle to cause increased negative camber because that will increase the angle of the upper arm. Even still it shouldn't be a problem. People run camber kits on these cars all the time without axle binding, which accomplishes the exact same thing. You seen those corny Stance-Bro Hondas with -5 degrees of camber and their axles don't bind.

Did the problem occour before or after you swapped out all the tie rods? Are you sure all 4 inner & outer tie rods were replaced?

Trust me.....hunting down suspension issues can take a LOT of patience.

Also, have you checked the sway bar bushings (if any)?

BTW: What year & trim is your Civic? What year & trim are your hubs from?

Jimi Hondrix

1998 Civic EX Coupe. Hub from a '96 DX coupe.
Sway bar bushings looked good physically and had little movement when the car was racked during initial inspection.

The whole left front hub issue started out as a tire rotation (front to back) my son and I did to isolate a wheel wobble and we had a lot of trouble getting the left front rim off. Finally got the rim off and noticed leaking brake fluid which turned out to be the caliper piston so, we replaced it and new front brake pads for left and right sides. While doing the caliper change I noticed a ripped tie rod bellow's boot so, checked both inner and outer ties rods were shot..replaced both. Also replaced both on passenger front. After replacing tie rods did several left and right tight radius turns and noticed grinding during in left front during left turns (only).
Brought car in to tires plus and they said wobble caused from two split tires and rim not seating right on hub..they tried 3 rims to be sure. Ended up buying a set of tires, outer hub lip (too big) was ground down slightly (with my permission) to better accommodate rims, lifetime alignment done. At that point wobble was greatly reduced but, they told me it's best to replace hub assembly ASAP. After they ground the hub lip the grinding noise while turning became worse so, my assumption at that point was that the grinding noise was solely emanating from the hub/rim seating issue. Swapped out hub today and still have the grinding issue that now appears to be the knuckle rubbing shock spring.
I also noticed the (old) knuckle/spring rubbing when I did the tie rods and car on jack stand but, figured it was normal when raised like that.

At this point I feel I am so deep in this car all I have left is patience.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Can you describe the noise a little more?
- Does it sound like a fast spinning noise that goes with the tire speed
- Slow grind sound that follows movements of the steering wheel
- Slow grind noise that follows body roll as the car turns in (after you yank the wheel)

Okay well I'm quite surprised the knuckle makes contact with the spring (definitely not the shock though). They are quite far away. Here is an illustration of your front end:



If the spring IS making contact with the knuckle, then I would say all you need are new upper arms. They contain both the upper ball joints and bushings so that kills six birds with two stones. Unfortunately they are rather expensive stones. Moog is usually the preferred "aftermarket" brand, but I found their "premium" line is actually re-badged Sankie 555 arms on my CRX (mine drop-shipped directly from Moog via Summit Racing too). I could have saved some money to buy them in a Sankei box instead.

Before dropping money on upper arms, be sure the springs look okay.....not broken or bowed out. Perhaps take some pictures and post them here.

Your suspension will deflect under cornering load and blown upper arm bushings or ball joint can allow excessive knuckle movement.

Jimi Hondrix

I forgot to mention that the second mechanic I took it to today said front shocks feel fine. He lifted each side by hand near wheel well and rocked the car, bounced the car from both left and right side front.

I think in the interim I will torque down as many suspension and steering parts I can get to and apply some synthetic grease to the spring/knuckle arm and see if that lessens or eliminates the grinding noise. If so, probably just a band aid but, at least would confirm my suspicion. I don't feel that the grinding is a safety issue, just an annoyance.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

^Sorry I edited my post above quite a bit. You may want to re-read it.

Jimi Hondrix

You're awesome and I'm glad this forum exists

Is this the way to test the upper control arm?
I found a few in case it turns out to be the issue:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...9-7f80cce0df82

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...d=0CMwBEKYrMAY

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

No problem. Hopefully we can get somewhere.

Does the grinding come from the inside wheel when you turn (ie: left wheel when turning left)?

I'm quite hopeful it's a blown upper arm. It can be difficult to spot because the upper arm bushings are really tucked in there. The knuckle DEFINITELY shouldn't contact the spring when you jack the car up. I would grab this upper arm and yank the **** out of it in all directions trying to emulate the rubbing with the car on jackstands. Arm could just be bent too.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Moog premium quality upper arms Right CK90450 & Left CK90451 are about $45 each. Not bad. Don't know how much Honda brand costs.