Collsj

2005 CR-V EX Automatic Transmission, AWD, 105,000 miles.

This is EMBARRASSING, and I don't need to be told that I really screwed up, but here it is. If you want to pile on, go ahead, I can take it.

After installing new CV boots on the driver's side, I had a real difficult time getting the ball joint stud into the LCA because the strut assembly had drooped down so far, and no amount of prying on the LCA would get it low enough to clear the BJ stud. I finally resolved it by jacking up the steering knuckle/strut assembly to get the ball joint stud to clear the LCA.

I went for a slow test drive and got about a hundred feet out of my driveway when I started hearing some noises from that area and the first shift was a little "clunky." I immediately stopped and got out, and saw a trail of transmission fluid leading from my driveway. I slowly backed up back into my garage, jacked it up, and saw that the inner CV joint wasn't all the way in. Apparently with all the manipulation, I pulled the axle out of the transmission about an inch, or I didn't have it seated properly to begin with. I neglected to check it after getting the ball joint reconnected to the LCA. I pulled the axle again, and saw that all the teeth of the splines at the end of the axle (between the end and the circlip, about 1/8") were chewed up. The splines beyond the circlip were intact. I was able to recover a few metal chips by reaching into the transmission and pulling them out with my fingers. After kicking myself in the *** several times, I pondered what to do.

Before I got on the web and logged into honda-tech, my initial thoughts were to either do a thorough change out of the transmission fluid using the drain, fill, warm it up, and then repeat a few times to dry to rinse out as much of the metal as possible; or to have it towed somewhere for a complete flush. Since the weekend was upon us, I borrowed a car and went to the Honda dealer for some ATF to do a few drains and fills myself to start.

The metal chips will vary in size from perhaps a whole section of end spline to microscopic. The few pieces I could recover with my fingers were about .08" x .125" or a little smaller. On doing my first drain, I got about 2 1/4 quarts of AFT, so I probably lost about a quart. I checked the drain plug and found it was magnetized, but it didn't have much on it. I also dragged a magnet through the basin that contained the old fluid and didn't come up with much. I then poured the fluid into a milk jug using a filter inside the funnel. I had a few small pieces in the filter, but again not much. The total amount of metal I have recovered is much less than the amount that would have been stripped off the 1/8" at the end of the axle.

I don't have much more than general knowledge about what's inside my transmission, but I'll be doing some more research. I've seen a few cutaway models over the years of US cars, but I understand Honda uses different design than US car makers. I've also read that Honda transmissions have some internal filtering screens that can't be accessed without removal and disassembly.

I've had no transmission problems up to this point.

My concerns and questions are:

1. There is a lot of commentary both on Honda-Tech and other forums that transmission flushes are unnecessary and can even be damaging on Hondas. I recently learned that Honda recommends against transmission flushes and read the contacts of the service bulletin saying that. I had the transmission flushed at 62,000 and 91,000 with no ill effects at a local shop that I trust, and stressed to them that Honda ATF needed to be used, and suffered no ill effects. But, would a flush (do they backflush opposite to the normal flow of fluid to clean the filters?) even get those metal particle out safely?
2. Since I didn't get much metal out on my first drain, how likely am I to get much more on the second and third drains?
3. Where are those chips going to end up if I do several drains and refills? Will they safely make it to the internal filters and be trapped, or will they first get moved around to gear teeth where they can cause some damage, or will they get lodged in and obstruct some small internal channel that is necessary for proper lubrication and cooling?
4. Should I take it somewhere for disassembly and cleaning out the chips before driving it anywhere?
5. What about pulling the transmission and then just splitting the case to clean out the metal shavings without disassembling the whole transmission, and then putting it all back together?
6. How much damage will these chips do if I leave them in?

Am I just totally hosed with regard to salvaging this transmission without a huge expense?

Other than just doing several drains and refills or a flush, and then praying, I don't see a lot of options. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Collsj

On doing some more searching, it looks like there is both an internal and an external in-line filter on many Hondas. The external in-line filter is between the transmission cooler and the transmission. On my 05 CR-V, I think I found it right on the centerline directly down from the hood latch under the radiator. I can access it by pulling back on the plastic skirt below the bumper. But the question still is, how much damage will the metal chips do before and if they get to either the internal or external filter, and what's the best way to deal with the situation.

BrakeExpert

If they havent blown the transmission up yet, they may not have gotten to the internal pump, so you may be okay. The best course of action is of course to take the transmission apart. You got a new axle already, right?

Remember the wording used. Honda reccomends against a transmission "flush" meaning pumping fluid out, as they reccomend the 'flush and fill'. When you drained it what did you find on the drain bolt magnet?


If you were to find an automatic transmission expert and they verify these inline filters, they may reccomend a reverse flush, maybe at a lower pressure. Typical transmission shops sometimes do "flush" hondas, in addition to this not being reccomended, they also a lot of the times will use their 'generic ATF' while Hondas work better with Honda ATF. My bigger concern is the chips getting into the gear clutches, but if there is in fact an inline filter in the lines to the radiator (the trans cooler is simply an added area in the radiator) then disconnect it, remove (if you want) the whole radiator and manually flush out the lines and radiator and see if there is any metal in there.

Collsj

Hey BrakeExpert, thanks for the info.

1. I haven't gotten a new axle yet, as I'm not 100 % sure I need a new one. The damage to the axle splines was restricted to the short section between the circlip groove and the inside end of the axle. It was about 3/8" I think. I didn't think to measure or get a pic at the time. I was able to reinstall the axle easily. I am concerned about whether that small segment of splines function may be - whether they actually engage anything operationally necessary. I'm a little more concerned whether there is enough material to retain the circlip and hence the axle itself. At any rate, I don't want to buy a new axle if the transmission is shot or until I know what I'm looking at in terms of cost for the tranny.
2. Drain bolt magnet: there was very little material on the drain bolt magnet, just the fine powdered metal you would normally see and it was a pretty thin film. None of the chips from the axle splines were on the magnet, nor did much metal come out with the drain I did of the fluid. I dragged a magnet slowly around the bottom of the basin holding the drained fluid, and then I also poured it through a filter and didn't come up with much metal there either.
3. I'll try flushing out the cooler, that's a good idea.

I talked to a service advisor at my Honda dealer and to a local transmission shop that the Honda guy recommended. They told me the last thing I would have expected. Surprisingly, both suggested that the metal chips may not the catastrophe I have been imagining. The Honda service manager suggested that I change out the fluid a couple more times after driving for a while in-between, and changing the external transmission filter. The cost to have the transmission broken down, cleaned out, rebuilt, etc would be very high and he suggested to wait and see what happens; that it may not be so bad. He said they haven't replaced a transmission at the dealership in over five years because Honda wants about $5,000 grand for one. So he suggested the independent guy, to whom they have been sending their customers to for years.

The guy at the independent shop basically said the same. I just don't see how that much metal could not cause serious problems with gears, clutches and pumps. I read that some transmissions also have magnetic solenoids that can be messed up by metal fragments, but I haven't been able yet to find out if the Honda has magnetic solenoids.

holmesnmanny

I think a few drain and fills might just do the trick, using a magnetic drain bolt. The splines aren't exactly big pieces of metal. You might just get away with slapping another axle in there and it might hold up even with reduced splines.