what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner!
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what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner!
Hello,
My name is Mace Ward, I work for Diesel Head in Knoxville, TN. We are in the process of launching our sport compact division. Our first product will be a new casting of a B-series cyl head. This will be our own casting, we will not be using any part of the oem Honda head. My plan is to design one B-series head that will accept any B-series distributor and Intake Manifold! The Vtec oil passage will be pre threaded and a plug included in the box for you LS-Vtec guys! I do need some help with this project though.
I need to obtain technical drawings of the B-series heads, intake manifolds, and distributors.
Any information that might help in the design of this head will be greatly appreciated.
Also, if any of you have any input as to what will be the best head to model our casting after please speak up.
Thank you all for your time and info.
Mace Ward
Diesel Head
Knoxville, TN
800-873-1843
My name is Mace Ward, I work for Diesel Head in Knoxville, TN. We are in the process of launching our sport compact division. Our first product will be a new casting of a B-series cyl head. This will be our own casting, we will not be using any part of the oem Honda head. My plan is to design one B-series head that will accept any B-series distributor and Intake Manifold! The Vtec oil passage will be pre threaded and a plug included in the box for you LS-Vtec guys! I do need some help with this project though.
I need to obtain technical drawings of the B-series heads, intake manifolds, and distributors.
Any information that might help in the design of this head will be greatly appreciated.
Also, if any of you have any input as to what will be the best head to model our casting after please speak up.
Thank you all for your time and info.
Mace Ward
Diesel Head
Knoxville, TN
800-873-1843
#2
Mad Scientist
Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
did you know that there is only 2 different b-series vtec heads?
the pr3 (type r, b16 and b17)
and the p72(gsr)
intake man. bolt pattern is different between the 2 as also cumbustion chamber size 41.6 cc's(p72) vs. 42.7cc's(pr3)
the type r head has a little polishing and bowl porting from factory
the rest is pretty much the same casting and everything but the im. is interchangeable between the 2.
edit: dude, why did you make 3 different threads about the same thing in the same hour?
the pr3 (type r, b16 and b17)
and the p72(gsr)
intake man. bolt pattern is different between the 2 as also cumbustion chamber size 41.6 cc's(p72) vs. 42.7cc's(pr3)
the type r head has a little polishing and bowl porting from factory
the rest is pretty much the same casting and everything but the im. is interchangeable between the 2.
edit: dude, why did you make 3 different threads about the same thing in the same hour?
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
Good luck getting drawings. You'll probably need to make your own...
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (mmuller)
now what I am also taking into consideration is the distributors. I am pretty sure that there are different bolt patterns there also.
next is the LS guys. say if a person with a LS wanted to purchase one of our heads, i would like for him to be able to use his LS int manifold. As far as the distributor goes, i am not sure if the vtec engines will run correctly off of a LS distributor.
Thank you for the info!
next is the LS guys. say if a person with a LS wanted to purchase one of our heads, i would like for him to be able to use his LS int manifold. As far as the distributor goes, i am not sure if the vtec engines will run correctly off of a LS distributor.
Thank you for the info!
#5
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSLHONDA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">now what I am also taking into consideration is the distributors. I am pretty sure that there are different bolt patterns there also.
next is the LS guys. say if a person with a LS wanted to purchase one of our heads, i would like for him to be able to use his LS int manifold. As far as the distributor goes, i am not sure if the vtec engines will run correctly off of a LS distributor.
Thank you for the info!</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes vtec head and non-vtec heads have a different dizzy bolt pattern..but arent you talking about vtec heads? all of them share dizzy bolt pattern.
mm I dont know about your idea in the Im. since there is 3 different bolt patterns (pr4, pr3 and gsr)
so if i was able to use a ls intake manifold on a vtec head(wich is stupid since im's are cheap these days); what about if i wanted to upgrade to a vtec intake man.?
next is the LS guys. say if a person with a LS wanted to purchase one of our heads, i would like for him to be able to use his LS int manifold. As far as the distributor goes, i am not sure if the vtec engines will run correctly off of a LS distributor.
Thank you for the info!</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes vtec head and non-vtec heads have a different dizzy bolt pattern..but arent you talking about vtec heads? all of them share dizzy bolt pattern.
mm I dont know about your idea in the Im. since there is 3 different bolt patterns (pr4, pr3 and gsr)
so if i was able to use a ls intake manifold on a vtec head(wich is stupid since im's are cheap these days); what about if i wanted to upgrade to a vtec intake man.?
#7
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (IN VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I like quench.</TD></TR></TABLE>
me tooooo hehe
me tooooo hehe
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (mmuller)
the idea is to cast one head that has threaded holes to accept any of the relevent B-series int manifolds and distributors. The end customer just decides where he needs to install his studs or bolts to.
I am trying to look at the possibilities of catering to alot of needs with one head. LS-vtec, oem replacement, performance market. etc....
Also, if this proves to be un-doable, what would be the best choice to produce. The porting and polishing on the type-r is out of the question from a production standpoint. So that leaves me deciding what of the B-series Vtec intake manifolds do I want to make my head fit and do I make it with the GSR square or B16 round comb chamber.
I am trying to look at the possibilities of catering to alot of needs with one head. LS-vtec, oem replacement, performance market. etc....
Also, if this proves to be un-doable, what would be the best choice to produce. The porting and polishing on the type-r is out of the question from a production standpoint. So that leaves me deciding what of the B-series Vtec intake manifolds do I want to make my head fit and do I make it with the GSR square or B16 round comb chamber.
#9
Mad Scientist
Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSLHONDA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the idea is to cast one head that has threaded holes to accept any of the relevent B-series int manifolds and distributors.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i guess could do that, but as far as using a non-vtec dizzy on a vtec head and using all the bolts in their respective locations; you cant since one of the legs on the non-vtec dizzy wants to go on the same spot as the vtec solenoid wants to go so they'll fight.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSLHONDA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I make it with the GSR square or B16 round comb chamber.</TD></TR></TABLE>
p72 has more quench, if you look you would know...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i guess could do that, but as far as using a non-vtec dizzy on a vtec head and using all the bolts in their respective locations; you cant since one of the legs on the non-vtec dizzy wants to go on the same spot as the vtec solenoid wants to go so they'll fight.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSLHONDA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I make it with the GSR square or B16 round comb chamber.</TD></TR></TABLE>
p72 has more quench, if you look you would know...
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
What if the bolt patterns intersect such that the bolt holes on the head overlap?
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (IN VTEC)
Quench: yes I do know that. It seems as if there are more of the B16 heads being used for the aftermarket side then any other head. Am I correct? See these are all questions that I am trying to answer. I am starting out by building one head. After this is out for a while we will branch out into other models and heads. So GSR or B16?
Overlaping Bolt holes: I have all of the Vtec intake man gaskets and I will not have a problem there. The biggest answer I need to verify is the water port on the intake manifolds. The same or different. I know that the LS is round and the Vtec is rectangle. Any other input from anyone?
Overlaping Bolt holes: I have all of the Vtec intake man gaskets and I will not have a problem there. The biggest answer I need to verify is the water port on the intake manifolds. The same or different. I know that the LS is round and the Vtec is rectangle. Any other input from anyone?
#12
Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
I am wondering about price. The B16 heads are going for relatively little money in the used market now (sub-$400 range, if i recall). Aftermarket distributors are available cheaply (if you don't like cutting off one leg to use an LS unit w/ a VTEC head), as are intake manifolds as was mentioned previously. I would guess you'd have to manufacture a pretty damn cheap head to be competetive, especially since you've ruled out porting. Is this possible?
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (acy76)
Acura/Honda sell their bare heads for just under $1500 and just under $2000 loaded. Our bare head should go to the end customer for between $500 and $1000! That should be a very sellable price for a brand new cyl head. We will be the only company casting our own head other than Honda. Dart uses a Honda/Acura core and then add their items to it. I am going to contact Dart soon about the possibilities of using their followers and other items in our "Loaded" heads.
I have also toyed with the thought of designing our basic core off of the Type-R. Type-R Int Man, valve guides "to accept the smaller stemed valves of the type-R", and same valve seat size. We will not be porting or polishing it at first. The head would be a cross between the Type-R and the B16. After the first version "whatever that may end up being" hits the market we will begin to work on other versions and other applications. What do you think?
I have also toyed with the thought of designing our basic core off of the Type-R. Type-R Int Man, valve guides "to accept the smaller stemed valves of the type-R", and same valve seat size. We will not be porting or polishing it at first. The head would be a cross between the Type-R and the B16. After the first version "whatever that may end up being" hits the market we will begin to work on other versions and other applications. What do you think?
#14
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
All sounds good but you need to do some more research and compare all the heads side by side in person...
Type-r valve stems are the same thickness as other vtec valves.Only the intake valves are lighter by like 10%.
The type-r head and B16 head are the SAME CASTING, just different components.
And the port job is very minor on the type-r...I wouldnt even call it a port job,its just a cleaned up bowl so its smooth with the valve seat recess...
IMO, just make a GSR head copy in 2 versions.One to accept the gsr manifolds and 1 to accept B16/type-r manifolds...BTW the exhaust manifolds have identical bolt patterns...Or make one head with holes/studs installed to fit either like you stated above...
Like someone said also,used bare heads go for under $400...No one uses factory internals much anyways so I dont the think the loaded ones would do so well
Type-r valve stems are the same thickness as other vtec valves.Only the intake valves are lighter by like 10%.
The type-r head and B16 head are the SAME CASTING, just different components.
And the port job is very minor on the type-r...I wouldnt even call it a port job,its just a cleaned up bowl so its smooth with the valve seat recess...
IMO, just make a GSR head copy in 2 versions.One to accept the gsr manifolds and 1 to accept B16/type-r manifolds...BTW the exhaust manifolds have identical bolt patterns...Or make one head with holes/studs installed to fit either like you stated above...
Like someone said also,used bare heads go for under $400...No one uses factory internals much anyways so I dont the think the loaded ones would do so well
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (PyroProblem)
the type-R valve stems are deffinatley as smaller diameter. this is a big part of the extra flow that you get with the Type-R.
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
Not so much. The part of the stem that rides in the guide is the same diameter for VTEC heads. The part closer to the tulip is undercut, but doesn't touch the guide.
Looking at the specifications section in the Helm service manual might go a ways to helping you.
Looking at the specifications section in the Helm service manual might go a ways to helping you.
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (IN VTEC)
Even the bolt patterns are the same for the b16/gsr heads. The only difference is the water inlets are in different locations and different shapes. Of course the internal design itself is a bit different. CC size and port shape etc. The pattern on an ls is different though.
Just make all 3 castings. The distributors won't work for both. You have to chop an ear off an ls distr to use it on a vtec head. And it sits funny so timing is always a bit off.
Just make all 3 castings. The distributors won't work for both. You have to chop an ear off an ls distr to use it on a vtec head. And it sits funny so timing is always a bit off.
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (Sack Master)
Yea, I have ruled out using the LS dist on the Vtec head. Now correct me if I am wrong but arent the B16 and Type-R the same int man pattern and the GSR is its' own little monster. I am leaning towards a B16/Type-R base casting with some type of flow upgrade. The porting and polishing is not an option from a beginning production standpoint so that leaves larger valve seats/valves as what I belive to be the easiest and most cost effective way to increase flow and help sales without having to port the head. Eventually we will look into things like the porting and different options like that. You have to crawl before you walk. We have to keep the oem replacement guys in mind also. The local Acura dealer here is very interested in purchasing heads from us. I thought that they were obligated to purchase only oem parts but as long as they inform their customers what they are getting they can use aftermarket parts.
#19
Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
I love how everybody voted for the Type-R head, even though it's just a PR3, ahahah. One of the big reasons for many people using the PR3 head is because there are so many of them, they have been in production longer and in greater quantaties. I don't think it is because of the technical merits of one over the other.
On my D-series, the water port (that passes throught the IM on the dizzy side), I am using a round hole IM on a rectangular hole block, no problems. But I'mnot sure if this is what you're talking about.
-PHiZ
On my D-series, the water port (that passes throught the IM on the dizzy side), I am using a round hole IM on a rectangular hole block, no problems. But I'mnot sure if this is what you're talking about.
-PHiZ
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (PHiZ)
The mani discussion about the water ports was ruled out once we decided against going with the option of using the LS int man on the vtec head. All of the Vtec water ports are square and in the same location, the LS's have a round port in a different place.
We are toying with the thought of pre threading the vtec oil passage and inclucing a plug with every head. This will be for those LS-Vtec guys. Anyone have any thoughts on that? IE: problems with running a tapped port on a Vtec setup? etc..??
We are toying with the thought of pre threading the vtec oil passage and inclucing a plug with every head. This will be for those LS-Vtec guys. Anyone have any thoughts on that? IE: problems with running a tapped port on a Vtec setup? etc..??
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
I think we need to support any kind of development work like this if we want the B-series line to carry on like the 350 Chevy and Ford 5.0.
Heads might be easy and cheap to find now but 10 years down the road that might be a different story.
Heads might be easy and cheap to find now but 10 years down the road that might be a different story.
#22
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSLHONDA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We are toying with the thought of pre threading the vtec oil passage and inclucing a plug with every head. This will be for those LS-Vtec guys. Anyone have any thoughts on that? IE: problems with running a tapped port on a Vtec setup? etc..??</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's a pretty good idea that would make for a more complete package, it would be nice if it would be tampered so mo leaking problems.
as far as your earlier post about putting bigger valves in, you have to be careful since you have to remember that a lot of guys run very high dome pistons+ high lift cams that barely clay without contact.
with bigger valves, well you'll have more flow, but a lot of people wont be able to use the heads not only for piston to valve contact, but for piston reliefs also.
We are toying with the thought of pre threading the vtec oil passage and inclucing a plug with every head. This will be for those LS-Vtec guys. Anyone have any thoughts on that? IE: problems with running a tapped port on a Vtec setup? etc..??</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's a pretty good idea that would make for a more complete package, it would be nice if it would be tampered so mo leaking problems.
as far as your earlier post about putting bigger valves in, you have to be careful since you have to remember that a lot of guys run very high dome pistons+ high lift cams that barely clay without contact.
with bigger valves, well you'll have more flow, but a lot of people wont be able to use the heads not only for piston to valve contact, but for piston reliefs also.
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (mmuller)
[QUOTE=mmuller]
that's a pretty good idea that would make for a more complete package, it would be nice if it would be tampered so mo leaking problems.
Thank you for the complement. Could you please elaborate alittle more on your suggestion?
About the larger valves vs. piston clearance issue, could someone please give me some specs or raitos of valve size to piston dome clearance? I assume that we are only worried about the int valves.
Does anyone else have any suggestions about how we can improve flow easily from a production standpoint? And any ideas about other ways we could improve on the OEM design will be appreciated!
that's a pretty good idea that would make for a more complete package, it would be nice if it would be tampered so mo leaking problems.
Thank you for the complement. Could you please elaborate alittle more on your suggestion?
About the larger valves vs. piston clearance issue, could someone please give me some specs or raitos of valve size to piston dome clearance? I assume that we are only worried about the int valves.
Does anyone else have any suggestions about how we can improve flow easily from a production standpoint? And any ideas about other ways we could improve on the OEM design will be appreciated!
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Re: what B-series head is the most popular? My company will make the winner! (DSLHONDA)
Why not invest about 500 to a 1000 dollars and buy a PR3 head and a P72 head. That would be a good way to start.
Just remember, most people buy used vtec heads from japan from 300-1000+ depending on what you get with it and what model it is.
Plus bare Integra type R heads are around 600-800 dollars anyway. The complete ones are much more expensive.
It is all the "extras' that is the expensive part.
Good luck with your little project
Just remember, most people buy used vtec heads from japan from 300-1000+ depending on what you get with it and what model it is.
Plus bare Integra type R heads are around 600-800 dollars anyway. The complete ones are much more expensive.
It is all the "extras' that is the expensive part.
Good luck with your little project