B18EG6

95 gsr... Timing belt on TDC perfectly, tension is adequate.

IF I did a nice valve adjustment.... its gotta be the lost motion assemblies.

to stop them from ticking, can i just remove them and soak them in oil for a day or so, and replace them? Or once they lose their precious oil they are done for?

Spade

Are you sure it isn't your injectors?

B18EG6

I havent changed them from when i replaced the head gasket before... Im using stock gsr injectors, and have been for a while now.

How do you keep LMAs from ticking? could i just remove the valve cover and drench them in oil all day long? will they stop ticking after a while or do i need to take them out and douse them with oil?

MikeSarr_GSR

Id have to hear the tick... we have a 95 in our fam with 158K on it and it doesnt tick. Based on exp, I would say have it leaked down. You could have a bent valve and not know it If you ran high lift cams on GSR LMAs... I wouldnt doubt they are trashed... but I wouldnt put too much stock in it. Also... it could be the very beginning of a rod bearing deciding to let go.

Mike< who owned a B18C1 that bent valves twice, crushed the GSR LMAs with improper installed heights on portflow/ITR outers/skunk retainers CTR cams, over-torqued cam caps destroying my head and cams and eventually spun a rod bearing. I have a stored mental library of sucky sounds from a B18C unfortunately...

B18EG6

Car was running fine before headgasket replacement. New valves with about 100 miles on them. GSR cams also.

i dont know why a rod bearing would let go at idle... i keep the recommended amount of oil in it at all times.

about the LMAs tho... how do i stop them from ticking, do i need to remove them and oil them up or can i just pour oil and maybe assembly lube all over them?

the LMAs arent trashed... unless they got trashed just sitting in my garage for a few days... everything was running fine and brilliant before the HG replacement.

MikeSarr_GSR

again, all sounds are different. maybe your valves are not adjusted to spec. if they are too tight, they will slap the seats when they return, that can make a click. considering you have to remove cams and everything all the way down to remove and install the head... this could be a minor thing you might have missed. just trying to give you ideas. if you have oil pressure, your LMAs will be filled with oil and operate fine... are the jets installed properly? cam caps in the right place? are you sure of the steps you used to reassemble everything? why are you so certain it is the LMAs...

B18EG6

Hmm i could need a valve adjustment... maybe my adjustment just sucks Ive never done one, although ive watched a few... Are you referring to the clearance between vlave stem, and rocker? I had the valves professionaly installed and when I replaced the head before xmas, everything ran fine

Im pretty sure I have oil pressure... I primed the system for a good 10 seconds before I started the car...but I dont have an oil pressure gauge

what jets are you referring to?

Cam caps are in the right place, as far as I know... Im 99% sure I put them in the right way... ill check that when I go home next.

Im not so certain its the LMAs, just a guess i guess


ps...Mike, sorry if i came off rude, im a little frusturated... i didnt mean to sound rude.

MikeSarr_GSR

bear with me on this one, it goes somewhere I promise

valve clearance issues:

the b series rocker arm has two places you can adjust the valve clearance.
lets start with the hemls service manual's suggested method:

the rocker shaft is what the rockers pivot on. I say pivot because they acutally
ride on a radius. i.e. they can spin on the rocker 360 degrees if they are out
of the car and on a rocker shaft. from the center of the shaft to the center
of the rocker pad is 22mm. the center of the rocker shaft to the center of the
valve adjustment screw that sits atop the valve stem is 38mm. if we remember our geometry, there is a 16mm difference which will ultimately affect our results.

the helms suggests that you put the feeler on the inside of the cam facing out, over the rocker arm under the heel of the cam at TDC. 1,3,4,2 in succession.
A fine way to spin the motor I have found is rotate the motor with a 19mm wrench at the PS pulley. Easy peasy. the spec is .17-.19mm cold intake, .19-.21mm cold exhaust or, .007",.008" cold, I,E.

If you decide to get adventurous... and say have seen c-speed and b series' method of adjusting valves... they put the feeler atop the valve stem and under the adjsuter screw. while this is altogether possible to do, it is measuring the clearance 16mm farther out on the rocker arm, so geometrically you would have to make allowances for it. I have found this. on a cold motor, .007" measured at the heel of the cam from inside out at TDC will be .010" under the adjuster nut measured on the SAME rocker arm/valve i.e. looser by .003".

So reason with me. If the motor isnt completely cold, the gap is larger than it should be since the motor has expanded. If you do it now, the motor will cool to much tighter specs. If you do your valves when the cams are at like 120F then they will be about .002-3" too big and will cool at say .003" instead of .006-7" which is good spec. This is done at the heel, 22mm from the center of the rocker shaft... or center of the rocker pad, as the helms mandates for these motors. If you go ahead and run the specs on a hot motor, and .002-3" larger than it should be and adjust them at the top of the valve stem, tack another .003-4" tighter on top of that. The motor could very well cool to .001-2" or make NO lash at the rocker pad/heel of the cam lobe.

This is the wrong way to do it. If you want to do the top of valve stem method, add .003" to your measurement on a cold motor. You will arrive at the spec according to the helms under the cam on the rocker pad. This is a way alot of guys do it, however I have found it to be hard and time consuming. Hence, the book is once again gospel in my mind, the procedure is proven and sound and fast and not hard to do.

The risk with running valves too tight is cam/rocker arm wear, valvetrain bind at high rpm, valves slapping the seats on the return and wearing it out and eventually needing a valve job due to eventual loss of compression. The sound of this is very noticable to me, it is a series of slapping/ticking consistently all the time present. The motor will feel GOOD, since the small valve lash simulates a larger cam. This however, is not good to do for extended periods of time. It is better for them to be loose than tight for the sake of your equipment, however it will not make the most POWER.

Example:
My boy's ITR sounded like this when he had someone put in his skunk cams. The car was a rattle trap. I made mention to him and he showed me a dyno, the damn thing had midrange to next sunday and a relatively low peak. We re-ran the valves made 5whp peak and about 10-12 across the curve and lost 5 at 5252, the motor is quiet. 0'ed VAFC, cams and reset computer the car ran super strong on the first run.

Gotta love factory/reccomended specs.

After some "discussion" this info scored me a free ITR valvecover by a buddy that had never done it the way of the helms for 15 years... even if his namesake is helms... considering that I saved him some time and energy and/or less wear on his motors from here on out. I was stunned. He was like "bro. Here man, this is for you." You know, this is the only way I would have ever dropped one on my engine.

Kinda cool.

_Endless_

aside from the component wear you mentioned if the valves are too tight, is there a way to know, with regards to driveability or idling, if they're too tight or loose?

you see, my mechanic adjusted my valves 2 cylinders at a time. he brought, i believe #1 to TDC then adjusted 2 cylinders and brought another cylinder to TDC then adjusted 2 cylinders.

after that, whenever i first drive the car in the morning, the rpm always dips to near stalling(barely touches 0rpm) on the tach, then jumps up to a little above normal idle then dips down again to near stalling WHENEVER I STEP ON THE CLUTCH TO SLOW DOWN OR TO MAKE A COMPLETE STOP. it does this about 4 cycles PER STEPPING ON THE CLUTCH before it stablizes to normal idling. if i turned my a/c on, it doesn't dip this low and doesn't pulsate but it still dips.

to be clear, THERE ARE TIMES BEFORE(prior to valve adjustment) that my rpm will dip, sometimes it does stall(rarely), whenever i step on the clutch BUT it will just dip once and come right up to normal idling unlike now where it pulsates. during the night it doesn't pulsate.

any idea if it's the valve or maybe there are other problem?

my mechanic told me that, since i'm using 450cc(car is turbo), the plugs are getting fouled from rich mixture and the ecu is still in the engine-cold program.

btw, the car is an SiR and the valves were adjusted after driving about 8km(not cold).

any help will be appreciated.

blufke

<--- doing valves for the first time soon on his b18c1. dont want to do something stupid.

MikeSarr_GSR

Endless:

if they were adjusted in that manner, they will not be perfect. My mech freind did the same thing and I am stickler... I run my feelers cold and measure before I adjust anything. Based on exp, I say check em while the motor is cold in the proper method, a good grab should be a nice bite but still slide/snap into place.
I bet about half of your valves are .002-3" too tight. Ive seen that before, its no big deal. Your idle will lope or seek a bit if they are too tight. Your car is turbo
but I dont know that it spools at 750rpm. Hence, this is something that is the NA portion of your motor.

tuffguyscivic

valve medic by gunk works wonders on ticking valves

but one time my boys car was ticking and he jsut was low on oil

Tweakmeister

I've adjusted the valves several times on my B18C1 (GS-R).

First timers:
Listen to what has been written...it's fantastic!
Make sure the engine is cold
It's sometimes hard to keep track of TDC...maybe use some chalk or something

I need to do another adjustment I think...Integras to "tap" but it's the injectors usually. When in doubt, take a screwdriver and put one end on the valve cover and the other against your ear to better get an idea about where the sound is coming from.

B18EG6

The motor is bone cold... hasnt been run for 3 months

Im a bit confused... you are suggesting to place the feeler gauge between the cam, and the pad on the rocker? Do i use them same specs?


thanks for the writeup, im just a little confused/hungover

MikeSarr_GSR

that could be fun too.

Tweak:

thanks for the props.

just want to convey the info the right way. and share some other
cool stuff I just learned.

ok. yes. For the one with ticking noises which might be loose/tight
valves asking:

the proper way is

CYLINDERS:

intake manifold
distributor 4 3 2 1 timing belt
exhaust manifold

firing order, mechanical TDC order 1,3,4,2

crank the motor to TDC#1 (if have PS, use a 19mm open wrench
and spin the motor at the pulley) and get out your
.004-.012" feelers MEASURE them first.
a valve at a time. take your time with it.

AT TDC THE CAMS LOOK LIKE THIS: invision this> \, / as a lobe

TDC#1 Cam Lobes viewed looking at the cam gears EX \ / IN will be
pointed like this if you are ever in doubt that you are at TDC.


your hand with the feeler will begin at the spark plug hole
then...

point the feeler toward the drivers seat under the
cam lobe heels/atop the rocker pads when checking/adjusting intake
clearances.

point the feeler toward the radiator under the cam lobe heel/atop
the rocker pads when measuring/adjusting exhaust clearances.

like said above, this is what the helms honda repair manual suggests to
do on a cold motor.

mechanical design/rocker arm tech info:

from the center of the rocker shaft to the center of the rocker
pad on the B16/17/18C is 22mm (suggested spec: .007/.008)
COLD. This is easy way of doing it and why the helms suggests
it.

from the center of the rocker shaft to the center of the adjuster
set screw on the B16/17/18C is 38mm (suggested spec: .010/.011)
COLD. this is more time consuming and a real pain in the ****.
this will yeild above method's proper spec at the rocker pad/cam heel
of .007/.008 which is 22mm from center. Geometry y0

Just another way the helms kicks *** in my opinion.

Further Instructions: Please forgive my cheap visual aids...

remove the negative terminal from the battery to reset the
PGM-FI/ECU.

rotate the engine 180 degrees (crank) = 90 degrees (cam)

CYL#1 TDC:

UP UP

_ _


PR3 PR3 (work with me here these are cam gears

CYL#3 TDC:

I I (index mark

UP PR3 UP PR3


CYL#4 TDC:

PR3 PR3

_ _


UP UP

CYL#2 TDC:


PR3 UP PR3 UP

I I

beautiful cam gears, yes/no?





heres what I do:

make a sheet with primary/secondary per cylinder and write em down
so you have a record before you adjust them.

it may look like this. maka bad clicka ticka, lumpy idle kinda dead
acceration

.010" .008" .009" .011" .005" .009" .004" .010"

.009" .011" .008" .007 .012" .008" .010" .011"

or this: maka bad tappy tappa clicka make good TQ, feels like it
revs up while not making good top end, like it works too much and
idle will be low and want to stall.

.002" .005" .003" .009" .004" .006" .007" .005"

.006" .007" .005" .006" .005" .009" .007" .006"

it should look like this: makea whirrrrr tacka tacka (happy) will idle
at 750, rev to the sky and feel clean.

.007" .007" .007" .007" .007" .007" .007" .007"

.008" .008" .008" .008" .008" .008" .008" .008"
(ideal on honda and skunk2 cams)

For optimal results...
you might want to also varify the timing is between 16-18BTDC at
500-750rpm.

how to set timing:
bridge service connector on ECU (important)
start the car and let it warm up.
hold throttle cable a hair and raise idle to 1200rpm
disconnect IAC valve will throw code CEL14 FLASH flash flash flash flash REPEAT>
slowly let the throttle cable slack out
car should idle at 500-600rpm, if not raise/lower the
idle to this spec with the IAC valve unplugged by
turning the air screw slowly to arrive at said speed.
with normal op temp achieved, check the timing.

_
_ < here 16
_ I set mine between and < here 18

at about 17.5 when the idle is like 600rpm. (works for me)

turn off the car
disconnect the negative terminal on batt to clear CEL
plug the IAC back in, unbridge the service connector
replace the neg batt cable
start car, should be set properly and idle hang at 750rpm y0

drive and varify your work

(wipes away sweat)
I hope that clears things up...

_Endless_

very nice write-up. have a .

i got a question, there are two specs for valve adjustment i.e. 0.007" - 0.009" on the helms manual so both are acceptable but which one do i really choose? the 0.007 or the 0.009?

B18EG6

That clears things up (that, and the abscense of my headache now)


I will post results when i go home in a week and a half, and maybe some pictures to help others?

MikeSarr_GSR

_Endless_
Honda-Tech Member:

the spec is such: found on the VECI label on the hood as well as in the
helms.

intake . .17mm-.19mm
exhaust .19mm-.21mm

you should set them to dead even spec which would be .18mm, .20mm
if you use the .007" and .008" feeler guages you will get dead on nuts
accurate enough bro. .006" is generally too tight... .0065" is acutally spec...

.005-.007 is the range IN and .007-.009 EX.

cool. hope that helps.

1_bad_EF

Mike, your the man (behind earl of course)
You have renewed my trust in the info on this forum, thank you
Reading your posts, I actually have to think to follow your idea
your lma thread was great along with Earl's archived "cam breakage info/solution.
Keep posting interesting tips.
thanks

BluntMan

could be a rod knock, or wristpin knock too. wristpin generally happens under no load and rod knock is under load. so if you hear it at idle and it is infact your wristpin then it will go away while accelerating. but a rodknock gets louder under load and high rpm's. could be alot of other things too! good luck.

B18EG6

Thanks for all of your help, I greatly appreciate it.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BluntMan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">could be a rod knock, or wristpin knock too. wristpin generally happens under no load and rod knock is under load. so if you hear it at idle and it is infact your wristpin then it will go away while accelerating. but a rodknock gets louder under load and high rpm's. could be alot of other things too! good luck.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Well would this problem just originate out of nowhere? the car was running fine and dandy before the headgasket replacement... and now it ticks when I reassembled it.

MikeSarr_GSR

you could also have a cam cap or two that are too tight. they make a semi/knocking snapping at idle and when it warms up it tends to get muted...

did you tq them to spec in sequence..?

12mm bolts get 18-20ft-lbs and 10mm bolts get 7-9ft-lbs

and yes if a rod bearing is beginning to let go, you will hear it at idle ticking.

if you hear a sound and it is at idle just:

tick tick tick tick tick tick tick (generally its in the head) if you raise engine
speed and zap it quick and it stays on the same frequency...

if it goes tick tick tick then you increase speed and zap the throttle and it goes

ticka knicka ticka knicka or a tacka tacka tacka... like the previous x2... I say
its in the block... listen to the frequency of the sound.

remember if the cam spins 90deg, the crank has to spin 180deg...

B18EG6

Yes i did tighten them in sequence, and to spec. I used loads of assembly lube too.


I cant really diagnose much without being at home and being able to hear it... which wont be for a week or two.

Is it safe to let the motor idle as I listen to it?

leadfoot78

Crap I have the exact same setup as the guy that destroyed his GSR LMA's. ITR/portflow springs S2 retainers, CTR cams, I instaled it all my self, it has been going for like 3000 miles and i spinned it to 8600rpm at the track by mistake and all is good. I do hear a ticking when my car is cold but its a slow ticking, maybe twice a second and it goes away when car is warm. When I took my head of it sat in the garage for days on the side when I was de shrouding it and cleaning everything I noticed that all the oil came out of the LMA's. Once it was clean along the spring installation I sprayed oil in them and pressed them with my finger a lot. Once the head was on the block I sprayed them with oil and turned the engine a few times. A few days later I did that again right before I started the engine, I also let my bro do my valve adjustment and he did it with the .7 and .9 gauges in between the valve stem and the rocker method they showed on C-speed. Can you tell me why that guy destroyed his head and GSR LMA's whit the exact setup that I have, I'm very interested in that as you might imagine.

globlctzn

Its interesting, I recently set my valve lash at .005 intake .006 exaust using the helms method. My b16 has never felt so healthy, it breaks the wheels loose when vtec hits in first now. If anyone has kept up with the boards at http://www.theoldone.com, thats what inspired me to go out of honda spec and try those settings.