imzjustplayin

I read on the EPA website that it is illegal to put R12a in a car that is R12 but then read somewhere else from an unconfirmed source the same thing, except they added on that it's legal to replace with what is basically butane and propane to cars with R134a. Is this true? Has anyone here retrofitted their cars to use propane as the refrigerant in place of R134a?

non-VTEC

why on earth would you want an extremely flammable gas pumping thru your a/c system.

stop being cheap and endangering yourself and others. fix it properly.

fcm

Actually, the R12 DIY "fix" Red Tek uses propane as it's refrigerant, [same with Duracool].

As mentioned, it is a hydrocarbon and although it/they can be used as refrigerants, they devalue your car by the cost of an A/C system, an A/C system contaminated with hydrocarbons can not be "fixed" without replacing everything.

Any parts replaced will have it's warranty voided.

What is it you are wanting to do? 94

ohsnapzafingcu

iTrader: (2)

i wouldn't do it, if you spring a leak somewhere and it sparks it'll have some mean aftermaths

imzjustplayin

well R134a is flammable at 400f as well and I heard they add stuff to the Duracool in order to make it not so flammable.

fcm

How flammable it is is not the issue, [or should not be] after all you have gas under pressure at all times in your car. 94

imzjustplayin

so you agree with me that it is mostly a non issue, right? Cause you still would have the issue with the fuel lines being pressurized as well! So it's not like it'd be that much worse..

fcm

Again, it's not the fact that it is flammable that I am against using it, I am against it because it's a hydrocarbon, hydrocarbons in an A/C system is a contaminated A/C system and that means you will get no warranty on any component of the A/C system you may have to replace, we can not even work on a contaminated system, it would contaminate our equipment and then any other system we connect the equipment to.94

imzjustplayin

So really, if I'm going to bother doing something like putting that stuff in my A/C system, I better be prepared to service it myself..? Best candidate for it would be a non functioning A/C system that I fixed up myself?

robfrmny21

just get hot shot to replace your r12, been used a million times with out converting and no issues

LyveMyche

Just recharge it with Duracool, you dont need a license to buy it and it works great. ALso its molecules are larger than that of R12 so its not as likely to leak back out. If you have a slow leak that is. I run duracool in my wifes Acura Legend and it cools better than it ever has before with R12. Retrofited R12 to r134A setups dont always work that well. an R12 System was not designed to run R134A in it so it just wont cool anywhere near like you will want it to. Trust me on this... Duracool is your friend...

96halx

From what I can see on the EPA website, duracool isn't on an approved alternatives list. Either way, it's not R134a, so a shop will either have to have equipment specifically for the refrigerant, or will have to have a contaminated refrigerant recovery setup. By the way, it's flammability is an issue, some leak detectors can spark, which would lead to bad things if your using a HC refrigerant. When you convert from R-12 to R134a, it might work good, it might not, depends on the size of the condenser and a few other things.

Bottom line, just use R-134a, you'll wind up with a lot less headaches in the end.

fcm

We retrofit around 5-10 R12 systems to R134a systems each summer, every one of them work properly.

We always replace the accumulator, [filter/dryer] cycling switch, [adjustable] do a flush and replace the service ports and any defective part, it is not necessary to replace anything but the service ports and the accumulator if there is nothing wrong, [leaks] with any of the other components, a new, R134a condenser will get you no more the 1-3degrees lower temp. at the vents.

R12 is a more efficient system, [cooler vent temps] then a retrofitted R134a system, EG; in my 89 Dynasty the vent temps are around 4 degrees C, [R12 system] once retrofitted to R134a I will expect to get no better then 8 degrees C, I will not retrofit the system until I have to, [major component fails] we are an authorized R12 recovery facility so I have all the R12 refrigerant I need, I need about a .5oz "bump" each year, to get that 4 degree vent temp., [very small leak I can't find].

Take my word for it, in the long run a proper retrofit is the best way to go.
http://airwolfeautoair.com/ 94

96halx

I agree with you 100%. Just to clarify what I meant by it might not work good, I was referring to how cool it would get the air at the vents. R-12 and R-134a give the same level of performance when placed in a properly designed system, the problem is that when R-134a is run in an R-12 system, the condenser and evaporator sizes are designed for optimal performance with R-12.

Just for future info, no refrigerants with any percentage of hydrocarbons in there composition are approved for alternative refrigerants by the EPA (including Duracool, and propane, obviously).

fcm

Not up here either, but it is sold over the counter at more then a few places and used by a lot of people, the same ones that cry the blues when they get the news that they will not have any warranty on that new compressor/condenser/evaporator they need, [unless they replace everything].94

91lx

i am considering trying the propane fix on my 91lx. any warrantee issues expired on this thing 15 years ago.

the AC has not worked since i bought it 3 years ago. if this doesn't work, i will be out a few dollars worth of propane and guess i'll get by with the same 4/75 AC system i have in place now.

as for safety concerns, you need to worry about the other flammable substance you have on board, gasoline. it is way more dangerous than a little bit of propane. propane has been used for many years in countries that don't have the mafia ...uhhhh I mean epa taking protection money from those that benefit from a cheap alternative that just so happens to work better. btw, i'd rather be in a room with a propane leak than a room with an r-134a leak. that stuff, in addition to being flammable has some pretty nasty ingredients, whereas propane other than being flammable is pretty damn harmless.

fleabag

Well if you're going to go with the duracool stuff, you'll have to repair your A/C system first by figuring out what the problem is, repair the problem completely, drain the system and then refill with the duracool stuff.

walker1980

ok i just stumbled upon this post when browsing for johnsons freeze 12 r-12 replacement(drop in)

if its a dead horse im sorry but i just have to comment.

as the other posters posted previously, what would posess you to even remotely think of using propane in place of r-12 or any refrigerant??? sure some commercial COOLERS use isobutane but those are stationary equipment intended for food service and in locations where even smoking is now prohibited(dosent stop a few select private owners but thats besides the point)
i want to share a story my old mechanic told me back when i was still living in new jersey.
he advised me to be very wary and cautious if i wanted to have a "shop" recharge my vehicle a/c system(i did a 134a retro myself) but back to the story: these shadetree shops would sneak propane into vehicles air conditioners and pass it off as r-12 or whatnot( HIGHLY illegal if caught) well they did it to one lady and she happened to have a tiny leak. she turned a/c on awesome cools like a champ. but than she proceeded to innocently light a cigarette. well the ENTIRE interior went up in one huge fireball.
as the mechanic joked with me saying smoking kills well yea it definately killed her instantly.

just food for thought when you want to put inappropriate gases into a refrigeration system.

phootbag

Aside from flammability, propane is a great refrigerant.

v4lu3s

The whole car going up is a load of BS. The amount of flammable gas in the system with the HC12 type refrigerants is usually less than 16oz, and even when it does burn is a lazy orange flame, not a flash and explode situation.

I have experience with Duracool, and have seen 42 degree vent temps at intake temp of 95+ with 80% humidity. That system took 13oz of duracool compared to ~30oz r12, runs at lower head pressure, and is not damaging to the atmosphere unlike R12 and R134a. The hydrocarbon based refrigerants are a blend of gases, and the lower quantity and pressure just won't let it be the hazard people cry that it is.

Robert Weltzien

I have used R-12a for the past 4 years in my old R-12 system and I am quite pleased with the result. Register temperatures are routinely 40F or less in the hot Georgia summers. The refrigerant is cheap and the compressor doesn't have to work as hard. Additionally, all I had to do was repair the leaks in the system and pump it down under vacuum for several hours. No need to replace any hoses, the condenser unit, the receiver dryer or the mineral oil. It also does not react with water, so aluminum corrosion is not an issue. Since the molecules are larger than 134a it won't leak through the hoses. Finally, it is ozone safe and does not contribute to global warming. Of course, I do all my own work as no a/c shop, including my stepson will touch it for fear of loss of license and a $10,000 EPA fine. To me it is definitely a much more acceptable alternative to R-134a for cost, operating efficiency, reliability and the environment.

Bob Weltzien MD PhD